Hetty Kingston Transcript
Rhona: okay, Hetty, welcome to the Rest Days podcast. So you've obviously known about this for quite a long time. You were the first person I told about my ideas to get this podcast off the ground, and as soon as I had the idea, I was really keen to talk to you about this.
Most of the themes of this podcast make up a, the basis of our friendship. So it's really nice to be able to share some of that with the world and hopefully they can benefit from the chats that we normally have together.
Hetty: Yeah. It's super exciting that this has kind of come to existence. 'cause right when you first spoke to me about it, I thought, oh, that just sounds like such an amazing idea.
So it's , incredible to be here having kind of come through that evolution of, with you. Of hearing how it's been growing.
Rhona: Yeah, I've been super nervous, obviously recently trying to get things off the ground, but every single time I tell somebody about it who I want to be on the podcast, they are really keen on the idea and they straightaway seem to resonate with it.
And I was pretty sure that this will speak to a lot of people. What do you think you know are the things most about this topic of rest days and looking after ourselves that are so important right now?
Hetty: I think that we live in a world where things are faster, faster, faster, and we're all pushing ourselves and that's incredible.
And there's a huge amount of inspiration out there to go and do really, really cool things. But we're all only human and we all have a finite amount of energy. And I think what's, gonna be so useful about this podcast is having that balance of inspiration with a healthy dose of self-care.
'cause it's so easy for that just to be completely left behind and then we can't, we find that we can't do the adventures that we love because we've gone and, burnt ourselves out. I think a lot of people you speak to, especially in the adventure and outdoor world, they will definitely have had a period at some point where they've overcooked it whether it's injury, whether it's general fatigue, whether it's post adventure, blues, I think they've all hit at some point for various people.
Rhona: Yeah. I feel like I'm starting to see it emerging everywhere and it's becoming a topic we talk about, but then I'm also at the same time still seeing us all battle and make the same mistakes.
So I think hopefully through this podcast we can maybe start to finally crack it a little bit and really work out how do we keep pushing forwards, but also keep ourselves healthy and sane at the same time. Yeah. I
Hetty: think it's such a tricky balance whether it's, like for me, I've got , 2-year-old twins. Um, and whatever it is that you're trying to balance in life, whether it's work, whether it's, family, whether it's other commitments, I think it's really hard, to take on board that we need more rest than perhaps we think we do. Um. And it's, it's also hard to feel like you deserve that rest.
But, um, I'm really hoping everyone you speak to on this podcast is gonna , encourage people to take those smaller moments, even if they're only small. to look after themselves and have, have a rest. 'cause it's so important.
Rhona: It is interesting as well because we talk about it a lot, just in our friendship, but we're.
We, we are so kind to each other. You are always telling me, oh, it's okay if you feel tired,, you know, chill out don't push yourself. And I say the same thing to you, but we're not as good at doing it to ourselves. Where do you think that comes from?
Hetty: I think it's really easy to have standards for yourself that are different to standards you, uh, have for the rest of the world.
I know, I remember when, I think one of us was injured and the other one had been doing loads. And literally our message conversation went along the lines of, I didn't do anything today and I think you were like, I didn't either. And we literally had to celebrate that as a real achievement because I think.
From a young age, I've always been very driven. Um, and this desire to push forward to, to better myself, to kind of keep improving and continual improvement, whether it's like I, and I think it's reflected in our conversations, whether it's doing better at work, doing, uh. More within the outdoors, whether it's sort of running further or, or trying a harder mountain bike trail, or even, I think for me, a huge amount is like mental improvement.
Like what can I improve literally within the core of my personality?, How can I better who I am as a person? And that. That drive and that push is definitely continuous. It's not something that I've known or have a natural ability to switch off. I think that's where like having honest and real conversations with your friends and trying to take on board what they're saying to you is so important because I think sometimes it's really inbuilt this kind of, continual forward motion.
Rhona: And I dunno about you, but I think until, I was really properly adulting, I didn't have those kind of friendships that I could do that. I struggled a lot more before because of that. Um, and obviously they're so valuable now., Do you think it's because we are more mature now?
We're able to open up to each other to have those proper friendships? Or maybe it's just luck that that's when I found those people? I dunno,
Hetty: I think. Honestly, I think there's higher consequences now. I think like when you're in your early twenties and before that, I honestly remember, I used to go to work.
Uh, then I would finish work. I'd come back I'd, at the time I would, did a huge amount of horse riding. So I'd ride my horse, preparing, often, preparing for a competition or something. I would then go from the horse to the climbing works. And then from the climbing works, I would then go to the pub and socialise with all my friends, and then I would go to bed and then I'd get up and go to work again the next morning.
And it was, it wasn't like it wasn’t an early start and, but that just felt completely doable at that point in time. And I think, yes, I used to hit, I think the tell for me as I used to get really ill, um, I used to be completely fine and then I'd hit a patch where, my body would just go, no, you're not doing anymore whatsoever.
And it would almost floor me. I didn't listen to my little inbuilt alarm system to tell me to rest until it sort of screamed at me. But I think being slightly older now, the consequences in a way are a bit higher because, for example, at work I'm further on.
So, you know, I can't afford to have that massive crash and, and just not. Do my work for a bit equally with the kids. And I just think I'm less tolerant. My body is less tolerant. I don't wanna say, I don't wanna say I'm old 'cause, I don't think I quite fall into that category yet, but I definitely have a lower tolerance to that sort of lifestyle of go, go, go.
Rhona: Yeah. I also think that I can't tolerate it mentally as much anymore. I think I got fed up of those. Of those massive lows that came with my body saying no, and it would stop everything for me. And now I don't think I can mentally cope with that. I just need this a bit more stability.
I don't know if I'm tired of it or, or what. I don't have the reserve. Maybe when I was younger I had more energy to pick myself back up again from getting, from being knocked back. But I don't seem to have that anymore.
Hetty: Yeah, I think as well, highs and lows are interesting.
I've always been one of these people that, if emotions were a wave, I'm quite choppy and quite big waves. Um, and the, the high is incredible, but the low is really hard. And I think when you are functioning on that, not higher level, but intenser level. Then you're not necessarily help. I've learned that you're not necessarily helping yourself, to steady those waters.
And actually when you live, I don't think it's not less adventurously. There's a real, concept that actually by having rest, you're kind of doing less or you're living less adventurously. I really, really don't think that's the case. I look at what I do now and I've actually in some ways done bigger things.
By correctly resting planning and then going into a bigger challenge coming out of it, resting and then doing another one than before when I was almost like throwing it all at the wall. Um, and seeing what sticked
Rhona: Well, yeah, I, I mean, I think everybody probably most wants to know how did you manage to ride an ultra with your two twins, I think is the thing that has brought you the most attention in the last couple years, and that is possibly a prime example.
Somehow you managed to combine being a new mom with going to do this big adventure and you actually managed to do it. And even I. Was a doubter at points, and I have so much faith in you, but I still was like, goodness me. How, I think the, that approach exactly, and, and the mindset you went into that with being so different to being, I need to get every last bit of myself, out of this, I need to find my limits.
You didn't go into, we went with such a different approach and then you actually, and, and then it was a success.
Hetty: I think I, I learned when I did. So this is for a race called Dead Ends and Cake, which is an amazing event in Switzerland. And you go to five remote checkpoints at the end of gravel roads and it each is a piece of cake.
So typically people's route is about, uh, 500 kilometres with about 9,000 meters of elevation. And I did it back in 2022 and absolutely loved it . and the approach I took there was to ride as much incredible single track as I physically could. My route was a hundred kilometres longer than pretty much any other participant.
I was last, but I knew I had to go back. Cutting a very long story short, somehow in 2024 I was on the start line, but with my two twins in the trailer. And I think kudos to, uh, race organiser Dominic, because he, he's the one that kind of said, Hey, you know, when I put my entry, I hope you're bringing the twins.
I hope you know, you can be my first trio. And his open-mindedness really inspired me to be able to do it. But going to kind of, I guess the concept of how I, how I managed to get ready for this and do, do it, it was those baby steps and instead of my normal approach of all out, I'm just gonna try, try, try, and.
Aim to get fit enough. I had to take really small steps, mainly for Annie and Flo, but also it taught me that it's a better approach in general. It kind of built me up bit by bit, um, and just led to having quite an incredible experience. I mean, it was, don't get me wrong, it was super hard.
I think that's the other thing people think is like, if you're resting. Uh, and you are kind of doing these things and maybe it's just that you are staying within your comfort zone. This was so far out of my comfort zone, but it was out my comfort zone in a different way to normal. It was not that I was pushing myself to a physical limit repeatedly.
Almost to the point of destruction. I was having to stay in a way, I had to stay within a certain amount of capability 'cause I needed to look after the twins. But I still was right on the edge of what I could, from a strength point of view, what I could do. 'cause I had to put the bike on my back, um, and push the trailer up the steepest bit.
So I guess from that point of view, it was really physically challenging. Um, but from a stamina point of view, I had to make sure I always had a bit in the tank just to look after the girls.
Rhona: Sometimes that's the best way for anybody though, not just when you've got the responsibility of having children with you.
Um, you know that quote, they say you can't win the race at the start, but you can lose it. And I think that applies to actually li life. You, you can't guarantee that you'll live a long, healthy life. You don't, but you can, you can certainly screw it up. Early on if you do the wrong things.
Yeah. And you can do that. And anybody doing any physical challenge can do that. Whereas this approach where you kept. Enough in the tank for, to be able to still mother at the same time as doing this. Maybe we all should be doing that when we're doing challenges because then when your bike breaks when the storm comes in, you've got the thing that gets you through it, you know, you've got that bit inside of you
Hetty: And I tell you what though, it was such a challenge, so everyone at the start, everyone kind of, um. Cycles through these streets of St. Gallen circles, this old olive tree. It's amazing. And then everyone spans off in different directions and it's, it's just very cool, except for normally everyone else spans off at speed.
And there was me with a trailer sort of chugging away slowly, and I was off the start line, but actually an hour into the race. And that's only an hour of a kind of three day event. I stopped and gave the twins a sit down breakfast because my approach was to keep nap times as nap times, meal times as mealtime.
And they had plenty of opportunities to get out and wiggle and play. This wasn't, I don't want anyone to think that. I just kind of shut them up in the trailer and was like, right, that's it. It was very much centred around their routine, their day, and in the bits in between could I travel a really long way up a lot of hills, but, um, I think the thing I hadn't anticipated.
The hardest bit for me was these repeated stops because I'm so used to getting my head down and just cracking on and being like, okay, right. Suffer through the pain. Just push, push, push, push, and almost push to a point where you numb, you like numb off to all of that to have to stop like regather yourself, do kind of like whether it's a nappy change or a feed or whatever.
'cause I was still breastfeeding as well. Um, was so challenging and actually it really made me confront my. Inability to rest, I guess. Um, but it was a good thing and I definitely got into it the more the race went on.
Rhona: Yeah, I don't think I'd ever considered that part actually, of how hard it would've been to get going again.
Every time you had to stop. Yeah. Yeah. 'cause normally you just avoid stopping so you don't have to deal with that problem.
Hetty: But don't we all taking this a little bit broader? Don't we all just avoid actually confronting the issue that we maybe struggle to rest or struggle to stop? Is it just not easier sometimes to push on and keep going and just.
I guess being slight denial that stopping is sometimes harder.
Rhona: That's so true actually. And also I think that probably the further you get from it, the moments you might save or the moments you actually were, 'cause when they're in the trailer, Annie and Flo aren't being interacted with. They're probably having nap time.
But when you actually stop, that's the moments where you get to spend actual time with them on the race. And that's the bit that you'll remember as special that you did it with them. Yeah. So it's kind of funny because you might forget. You'll probably forget a lot of the pedalling and a lot of the bits where you were just zooming along the bits.
You might remember the, when you took them out at the checkpoint. Yeah. And then they had a little, you had a little cuddle with them. And
Hetty: definitely, definitely those. It was those moments that really will stick with me for a long time.
Rhona: Yeah, that's really funny. Um, obviously when they grow up, they're gonna hear about this incredible journey that you guys had together and luckily they're gonna have lots of good content to look back on it too, but.
Obviously you've grown up and, and with this idea that you needed to push yourself and , how are you gonna try , and avoid that with them? That's such a difficult thing. I, I don't, maybe we don't have control over it. I, I don't know.
Hetty: I think a lot of it is personality driven.
Especially for me. A combination of my personality and the fact that I've probably been brought up to maximise every opportunity and to seize the day. I think, um, this is a slight tangent, but both my parents have struggled with their health and. I think that really, like looking at that made me really want to make the most of every moment.
'cause you never know what's gonna happen. And I think that's probably where it's, partly come from for me in terms of Annie and Flo and how I can encourage them to, I guess listen to their body and have a nice combination of resting and pushing yourself. I, I don't necessarily know yet, but I'm hoping that, you know.
Role models are really important, and if I can, there are some things that are really hard that I found really hard as a parent to, to, even though they're two and they're probably not fully aware of what I'm doing. There are some things, especially for example, around body image where I know I have to start now being their role model now.
And even if that's hard for me, even if it's putting me in, I guess like an uncomfortable zone mentally, because I don't find it easy. I know that it's gonna be worth it if it passes on anything to them.
Rhona: Yeah. And, and now that they're absorbing everything, you're right. It almost does start now because, we were just having a conversation the other day about how, sometimes people can say things about food around us that maybe make us go, ooh.
Oh, that makes me feel stressed about food now. Or, gives us negative thoughts, but uh, uh, and that they'll be like the slightest little comments that somebody have made in conversations. It makes you realise how big an impact all this stuff that's just being said has, even when I'm around Annie and Flo now, I've realised, oh, I have to stop swearing, have to like actually think about the words I'm saying.
They're little sponges right now as wild to think that they could be picking up their view of the world and we're not even knowing that's what is forming in their brains right now.
Hetty: I know. I think, um, I love, one thing I'm really loving about it being a parent is showing them the world.
Yeah. Because everything, oh my gosh, everything is so exciting. Whether it's literally a slide in a play park or a pine cone, or birds. They spot so much. They're so, they're so incredibly observant and actually, um, they're really good currently at maxing out on play and then just resting when they need to rest.
Like if we look back to what we were like when we were little, maybe we all need a little bit more of that in our lives.
Rhona: Yeah, exactly. The only reason we're doing this right now is 'cause they're on nap time. Yeah. Yeah.
Hetty: This is true.
Rhona: Yeah, that's true. There's a lot that could be learned there. And going back to when you were a kid, do you think that you were looking at role models of that generation that were just work as hard as you can and you'll get something for it and you don't worry about the consequences.
Do you think that because I think definitely the role models that most of them that I had in the generation above us were just hard work is the only way.
Hetty: Yeah. I think hard work was definitely. Yeah, all the role models I can think of when I was little, worked very hard and it was a case of what you put in, you get out.
Um, there wasn't, that, wasn't say that you couldn't be lucky, but it was, it was very much like if you put in enough effort, you will succeed. Then I think coming kind of later in life, looking at my, I guess I adventure in outdoorsy role models. It was very much when, instagram and social media, like it, adventure was newer to those kind of platforms, and it was very much showing the extreme it was, suffering was completely glamorised.
And actually in a way it was held like a badge or a trophy as, as a good thing. And I guess now I think it's changing and, it's a bit of a different picture on there. Not completely, but. I mean like type two, fun, sufferfest, hurt locker, all these pain cave, all these phrases were definitely proud things to say.
Um, whereas now I kind of feel quite differently about that.
Rhona: Yeah, maybe before social media, you're seeing the tiny 0.1% of people who can have four hours of sleep, hammer their body, go to work, be a professional climber at the same time, you know, you and, but the problem is they're the only ones on the TV screen.
They're the, they're the ones with. The most followers on Instagram. So you can't help but end up with this bias that makes you think that everybody should be able to do that. And if you can't, then maybe you are not good enough. So the solution to that surely is to just work harder, drive more, push further.
Hetty: Yeah. I think especially 'cause a lot of these, a lot of these are not, I dunno, not necessarily role models, but, but characters, um. They focused on being quite relatable too. So you kinda have this dangerous combination of feeling like that could be you, but only if you tried exceptionally hard and you were willing to tolerate quite a lot of pain.
Yeah. Um, so I think it comes from only telling maybe two bits of the story, and that's kind of the everyday life moments or snapshots and then the top of the mountain. And I think. Hopefully what we're seeing more of now and with things like this podcast is that you're getting the middle and the middle isn't necessarily the most interesting bit, but it is where a lot of reality happens.
Rhona: I think it's also good to see, uh, now because Instagram allows us to see the lives of Yeah. Such a variety of people. Um, we get to see a bit more of those other levels because I think. My experience, and I don't have any scientific backing for this, but I think the two most at risk groups for burnout over training, undereating, getting stuck in these kind of cycles of not looking after yourself are women and the kind of semi-professional, amateur, high level sports people.
And often, those two things are the same per person. Um, and I think that's because the. The really, high level amateur, semi-professional athletes, they want to do the same amount of training, the same amount of pushing themselves as the professionals, but they, their brains don't register this fact that they also have a job or they also doing, you know, and they, they also doing something else alongside it, and they don't account for that in how much, how hard they're working.
I definitely see the burnout, the maybe the kind of control behaviours with exercise and eating more in that group almost than the the next level up group where all you have to do is do the exercise or whatever. I don't know what it is about women, especially of our generation, if it's because we are the generation that said, no, we can be as good as men.
Or whether it's because we just are so hard on ourselves and it's something about how we're brought up. I don't know. But I think there again, we're, it's a very high risk group. Um. And esp. Yeah. Especially. Yeah, a female semi-professional athlete, I feel like is the highest risk for all this stuff. Um, and I find that very interesting.
But now I think we can see more people like that and we see all parts of their life and realize it's not that simple. Unless you're a professional athlete, you don't actually just have the time to potentially push yourself to those limits. And then you can't just sleep the rest of, if you're not sleeping the rest of the day, it's not.
Hetty: When it comes to, women, I guess we, it's tricky 'cause it's, everyone is different. But I think one thing we do is , our values and our purpose is so interwoven with what we choose to do as a hobby. So it's not just a hobby, it's not just, I'm just going climbing. I'm just going running.
It is. A core part of who we are and how we think about ourselves. So I think the more you are taking that to a higher level, or the more you're doing that, the more it matters. Therefore, the more you're driven to keep pushing yourself in that area.
Rhona: Yeah, that's really interesting. And 'cause you've done,, extensive research looking into women and the outdoors and, um, is this something that you've picked up through that and what other lessons have you found through that?
Yeah,
Hetty: I've definitely seen that values and self-belief and purpose are so very much interlink linked with what, women do. As a sport or hobby. The other thing is impact on mental wellbeing. And although, outdoor sport and adventure sports is really good for our wellbeing, the world of adventure and outdoors can attract people who are suffering with poor mental wellbeing to start.
And it's their kind of safe place or haven that they come to deal with those. With maybe a problem or, uh, something that was on there before they discovered the outdoors.
Rhona: Yeah. And it makes sense because, outdoor pursuits are an amazing treatment. Mm-hmm. Low mood or poor mental health.
Um, but they can also , they can become a cause as well if, if, if you're not careful about it. And definitely, I've experienced that and I know that, a lot of people who are listening will also have had times where maybe things have been, you've taken it too far or became too obsessive or that kind of thing.
Hetty: I think it's like, for me, I absolutely love, love, love exercising the outdoors, it can easily tip in, tip into a, I must, rather than I would like to, or I, you know, or even worse, like, not even must. I should. Yeah. Yeah. I think should is worse than must. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but. It's, it's hard finding that balance of, again, that kind of rest, enough rest for your body.
Um, well this is what I find hard enough rest for your body, but enough exercise or enough outdoor fix for your mind because the amount of outdoor fix in my mind would almost be infinite. I'd just keep going and I would never not continue to do what I love doing outside. But my body needs rest. Yeah. And there's the realities of life and there's all kind of like kids to look after a job to do.
Um, you gotta eat, you gotta sleep. And so I think that's the battle I find hard.
Rhona: Well, that's one of the things I want as well to talk about with this community is that, you know, uh, we're all coming at this from a different space. Some people, they need. You know, doing exercise, doing physical activities, outdoor activities, that is their rest from, maybe they work a hundred hours a week in a bank, or maybe they work 70 hours a week as a surgeon.
Whatever it is everybody needs a break from the, the, that that thing that they're driving and striving for, they need to have something else that's healthy for them. Um, you know, we are coming at it more from the side of, yeah, we would spend a hundred hours a week physically hammering ourselves and need to have a physical rest from that.
But some people are doing the opposite. And I just think it would be amazing if there, if we are able to make more of a community where everybody can use. You know, exercise healthy outdoor activities to be, to benefit them, but not take it too far and not do too little either. Yeah. Whatever balance is right and whatever background you've come from this, this can be useful for you.
Rhona:
So you might notice our audio has changed a little bit.
That's because we were interrupted by Hetty's. Lovely little girls waking up from their nap and causing a bit of chaos. So we have escaped from the house into my camper van and we're gonna finish off our episode in here. Um, but I think it's pretty appropriate because it just shows how difficult it is to balance everything in life.
Hetty, how are you finding, uh, you know, managing to get the bits that you need in around your, the kids' schedule?
Hetty:
I find juggling work and the kids, and then I guess me putting me, and I guess everything I did prior to their arrival, I find that definitely challenging and I'm still, I'm still working on it at the minute.
During my pregnancy I was not really able to be active much at all. Um, despite being a huge advocate for getting out and, and being active during pregnancy, I think how sick I felt and how big I got with the twins just meant I was quite limited physically.
Uh, so I think my reaction to coming back to work and the outdoors once they're born was quite almost like a kneejerk reaction of instantly being like, yes, go, go, go. What can I do? Where can I take them? Like what can, what can I fill my time? And so I've, I've kind of definitely become busy on all fronts, which is really good.
But now where I'm at is trying to work out how that all fits together. And I guess the one thing I've not found out how to fit in is that kind of all important rest day. So where I've been. Sort of refocusing my energy is trying to think what can I do with the kids That is say, like taking them outdoors and giving them an absolutely lovely time, but also not in a way that pushes me or is something is restful for me, which I know is.
Tricky when they're two. And they're very excited. And they're very enthusiastic. But I think it's all a big work in progress.
Rhona:
And it's difficult because you don't get to schedule it anymore. Everything is now done on their schedule. Even if you wanted to, you couldn't do that thing where you like hammer yourself and then you just have a whole day to chill out because there's, there's no days off anymore, is there?
Hetty:
No, there's definitely not. I think that's something I'm still. Getting used to is the fact that I'm not out there. I'm not scaling mountains. I'm not going on multi-day bike packing adventures. Yes, I've done dead ends and cake and I don't, I don't wanna knock what I am doing, but there's a huge amount that I'm not doing.
But the important thing I'm trying to tell myself is yet, because actually from a, from an exhaustion point of view, I'm probably more exhausted now than I was even then. And so it's become. Incredibly important for me to work out how I can factor in enough time for sort of self-care and the outdoors and in a way that makes me feel good about myself, because it's very easy not doing a lot of things that I was doing kind of pre-pregnancy to feel like that part's been left behind, whereas.
In my core, I don't believe it's gone. I just believe that I wanna make the most of this moment in a different way, and that's by being Annie and Flo's mom and living every moment that we have together. Currently.
Rhona:
I think that is such a good way to look at it. I think I've really started to look at life like that, that there's phases of life and different times and you don't have to have the same priority in all of them.
You don't have to be Hetty the person who rides ridiculously far on her bike in every single phase of life, life is so full of so many different things. You could, you can have different ones and like you say, you're never gonna get this time again with the girls, so that it's worth that being the main thing right now.
You won't, you won't mind, I think when you're back riding your bike again in the future all the time.
Hetty:
I think as well something I've got used to is like the ebbs and flows on sort of the. Microscale in terms of day to day, week to week, I've got used to my energy ebbing and flowing.
I guess what I haven't yet learned is it on the big picture, and actually like we're saying that there are phases of life. There's phases where I'm gonna be more centred around being a mother. There's phases where I'm gonna be more centred around my adventure, and there'll be times where those spheres overlap, but they, they won't always overlap.
Um, and that isn't something I've learned yet, but I guess it's. And a realisation I'm coming to.
Rhona:
And a lot of this, I think, is giving into the fact that we don't have control. Okay? Yes, it's an active choice to become a mom, but you don't have a control over whether you get one or two babies, whether not, you know, whether they are really active or whether they're really chill or all of this stuff, whether your health plays ball, and so.
Uh, actually being really okay with this phases of life idea, I think is a really, it makes it all a lot easier when stuff comes up. It doesn't mean they'll all be swimmingly easy, but, you know,
Hetty:
and I think like another, I guess, phase people don't talk about is when you're planning a family and you're thinking about having a family and you're trying for a baby and, you know, I feel so lucky every single day that I've been kind of blessed with two beautiful children, but I remember the trying to conceive phase where , people are like, Hey, do you wanna go do this ultra in June? And you're thinking, oh, well I really would like to be pregnant in June, but I don't know if I'm, I don't even know if that's possible. Yeah. And, and actually that was a really tricky time because I was kind of almost on enforced rest.
Not enforced rest, but like. That weird balance of, yes, I wanna plan things in because I don't want to just stop my life. But at the same time, I've got this incredibly important focus almost behind the scenes. That means I don't want to go dropping a a hundred or hundreds of pounds on a, on a race entry or letting my friends down by not being able to suddenly do a big adventure.
Um, so I think that's not something I've really heard spoken about much, but the, that, that part almost like pre, even pre-pregnancy, you are already having to balance. Life in a new way.
Rhona:
Hmm. And again, that's a phase where you do have so little control because you have no idea, you know how long it will take you to get pregnant.
Maybe there'll be miscarriages along the way. Maybe it will be really difficult, you know, it might take years, it might take assisted conception. There's so many possibilities in that phase and there's so little control over how it's gonna play out for you. And then in the pregnancy itself, again, there's that.
And sometimes I think because. You know, the people can go two ways. One way is to very much accept there's no control over what's happening. And the other way is to then try and cinch control anywhere in life, which is a totally reasonable coping mechanism, but can be very dangerous. Where maybe you actually do the opposite and you do too much physically.
Maybe you start to be quite controlling about what you eat or how you schedule your life, your work, schedule that. So, you know, sometimes we just grasp for control anywhere else.
Hetty:
Yeah, I'm definitely guilty of trying to control a little bit too much in my life. I think it, for me, order and knowing what's gonna happen and, and I guess.
I joke there is, I'm known for something called planned spontaneity, which is, you know, the least spontaneous way of being spontaneous. But I like to think that I can be spontaneous, but I can only be spontaneous if it's incredibly planned. Um, so I think that probably gives you a bit of a sense of how I feel about control.
I'm definitely, um, someone that would plan something with the spreadsheet to within an inch of its life. So when something is totally beyond my control, I do feel quite lost and I can turn to, I guess the less healthy ways, of dealing with that. Certainly becoming a parent and the journey to get there, taught me a lot about letting go of control and embracing failure.
Rhona:
Definitely.
I think we're very similar like that and it's probably a lot of what our friendship is based on . So we've talked a little bit about how, rest is useful in different ways for different people, and it means such different things to people. Um, and we have touched on the fact that for you, um, it, physical exertion is a great mental rest but how do you rest physically? Obviously that'll probably have two completely different answers, pre motherhood and, and now.
Hetty:
I think pre motherhood. I, I don't think I did. Mm. I think my physical rest was doing my work. I don't think I look back, I don't think it was particularly healthy.
Um, I think post motherhood to start with or to quite early on, the wheels completely fell off for me. I learned that all my coping mechanisms pre-pregnancy didn't really exist with two babies. They weren't, you know, you can't feel like. Particularly like having a bad day with your mental health and go on a 60 k cycle.
You know, when you've got 2, 3 month old babies and you're moving house, that's not, or even without the house move, that's not possible. So I think what I'm trying to carve out for myself or do now is a lot more walking. It's a lot more just appreciation of nature as a whole, I know it sounds cheesy, but literally, listen to the sounds.
Um, you know pay attention to all the senses. Like I'm not good at it. And I kind of, sometimes, especially when I'm got a day where I'm particularly anxious, I will rush past doing all those things. 'cause I don't want to connect with my body. I don't want to be in my own head. I just would like to just completely detach from all of that.
But I'm learning that the more I practice this and the more I kind of do. Naturally share that with Annie and flow, it's kind of fits perfectly with them because I'm like, oh, can you do this? Can you smell the rain? That's just the, the grass and the rain. Can you see the bird over there? It's actually helping me, but um, a natural part of I guess helping them and their development too.
Rhona:
Hmm, that's so interesting. At what point in your life did you ever start to think you know how rest could be useful with, you know, physically or sometimes mentally. There any point, obviously you, when you were, um, a teenager, you were a, a competitive and really good, um, horse rider.
When you were training your horse, was there ever any incorporation of physical rest into that? And did you ever think about that for yourself?
Hetty:
I've literally never put those things together till now. The fact that I rode, uh, quite high level competitively on my horse, would always make sure without fail that he had his rest days, but completely failed to have any myself.
I think, I think I looked at those days as just like opportunities to do a million other things.
Rhona:
Isn't that so wild? What are our brains doing?
Yeah. I think we're, so, especially when it comes to animals, you know, we mentioned earlier that, it's easy to tell your friends to do one thing and not do it, your do it yourself.
Hetty:
I think when it comes to us looking after animals, whether you've got a dog, whether you, you ride horses, whatever it is, I think we're so good at looking after all, all with, um, with kids as well. We're so good at looking after. Other people and and things, but we're very bad at doing it ourselves.
Rhona:
I wonder if that's also part of why women are a little bit more at risk.
Because as much as I love to try and avoid any stereotype of being a woman and like to pretend to myself that there is no basis, but for any, you know, there being a stereotype, there, there is some basis and there are some inbuilt biological things. Um, and I wonder if we are just in built biologically to care and look after.
Before doing that for ourselves.
Hetty:
That's a really interesting point. I do, I do wonder that. 'cause I think it's so easy. It's so easy to put , someone else or something else before yourself. Um. Yeah, that's a really interesting point.
Rhona:
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, this may be not much there. I dunno if it, there might be some men who say that they feel exactly the same way, but I definitely think when I'm speaking to male friends, it seems like that's less of an issue maybe.
Um, I also think sometimes, some of my male friends, they're better at just like if they were just given a plan and it just says. Yeah, here's your rest day. Or they are told this is the way to do it scientifically, there should be a rest day. That seems an easier concept for them, whereas it's like we are eating ourselves up.
I used to find when I was training really high level running, I would like literally eat myself up mentally. If I took a rest day sometimes, um, to the point where at some point in the day I'd probably crack and go out and do something. Even though that is what I had been told to do by coaches who said, this is gonna be beneficial for you.
I don't know where that came from. Have you ever felt eaten up like that?
Hetty:
Yeah, definitely. I think I really struggle with the concept. I know that you need rest to improve, uh, when it comes to training and I know that you, that it's scientifically required, but I just, I just can't seem to get my head around it.
I can't seem to. I guess if I'm being honest, it's, it's about feeling like I deserve the rest. Sometimes, I guess sometimes I don't feel like I. Deserve a rest, I feel like I should just keep going because if I don't keep trying, then I'm not going to get better.
Rhona:
And were there any figures in your life? You know, um, like for me there were quite a lot of coaches who maybe were of the generation where they believed that that was really the best way. Um, were there any figures who were saying to No. Hetty work harder? You're not performing quite at the level, just work harder and you will, or was it always coming from you?
Hetty:
I think it was mainly internal. And like I said before, just like that drive from seeing, um, both my parents go through various health issues, definitely created this internal push to seize every moment. Um, yeah, I think it's mainly internal, but there probably have been a few along the way. Hmm.
Rhona:
Has there been any adventures, that you've had where because it was just a bit more adventurous, it actually wasn't maybe quite as challenging? Um, I was trying to think of, you know, you went skiing in, was it Kazakhstan or Kyrgistan? Ka. Kazakhstan. Kazakhstan. Um, I was thinking of that and I was like, I'm sure that there was lots of physically challenging bits to that, but I imagine that the adventure of it and the logistics meant that you couldn't actually rinse yourself all day every day.
Hetty:
Oh, completely. So, um, I was lucky enough to go skiing in Kazakhstan. A place called East Pole, which was absolutely incredible. Like amazing powder, just the most beautiful remote setting to go and ski tour. Um, and very much there. We had to ski within our physical limits and not go all out because I think we were sort of seven hours from, from any sort of help of any kind.
So you can't really be messing around in those circumstances. And that was an incredible trip. And pushed me. In a gentle way, but a really great way. It was, yeah. Particularly special place to be.
Rhona:
Mm. And did, after that trip, I bet you felt pretty good. Yeah. But did anything click in your head that maybe there was, something there?
Something to learn there?
Hetty:
I think. Possibly not because, so we were ski touring and it was, uh, 'cause no one else was there and there was incredible powder, but it meant that putting all the skin tracks in so as you went up the mountain was incredibly hard work physically if you were on the front.
So I think I probably was, ticking that box of physical exertion. Mm. Um, and I think it's only when I've been pulled almost to the extreme that I've realised that I need rest. Like, it, it, I, I need the equivalent of being slapped in the face with it to realise it's not been a subtle realisation.
Rhona:
Yeah. Yeah. And I've seen you as well as all this, the physical challenges I've seen you work insane hours, running your own business, um, you know, and being involved in organising a human powered relay all the way from Scotland to Egypt. These kind of mental things that you've done in your job.
Organising a women's trad fest. All of this stuff is work that has required you to throw yourself so full in. In our friendship. You've been aware of the fact that after those periods you were pretty wrecked, but even despite acknowledging that, I'm not sure you were able to do them more in a more sustainable way.
Hetty:
Yeah, I think my work was definitely, we've talked a lot about physical adventure and outdoor and being kind of active outdoors, but my work is a mirror of that and it, it really has only been. Post-pregnancy that I have really realised the value of rest. Maybe it's the sleepless nights, but I also think it's, it's kind of that real confrontation of you really have to think about how you use your time.
Hmm. Yeah. And you, because if you, if you didn't, you wouldn't be getting any rest at all.
No. And I think you can't, you, if you wanna get something. Done. I think you can't not plan to an extent, or at least I can't not plan. Um, yeah, I can't not plan.
Rhona:
Okay. Now another thing I wanted to touch on a little bit, 'cause I'm just generally interested, I think because I was such a skeptic before, is that we have tried a bit of cold dipping together.
I honestly thought that, that I would never, ever try that. I thought that is a load of nonsense. Why would you ever do that? How does that work for you?
Hetty:
Um, so cold dipping came about at a time where I had very, very little time in the day.
Um, I couldn't fit in. I was running huge distances and I couldn't fit in kind of like, you know, a 20 mile run every time. I felt a bit under, you know, subpar. So I, me and a friend Jen, we. Went to our local river and we started trying to get in and I, I don't, I don't really know what started it, but it was just quite literally a toe dip right at the beginning. At this point in time I was like, I hate cold water. I have this weird thing where like, there's definitely, I don't really like sort of things in the water beneath me that's kind of freaks me out a bit. And we just built up from there and I, I suddenly. Not suddenly, but I gradually realised that it was really helping my mental wellbeing and that I was getting the same buzz off a five minute cold dip as I was a 30 K ride.
Rhona:
It's so interesting, isn't it? Now there's lots of actual science to back up the physical and mental health benefits of it, but it's just a wild concept is that anybody would want to go and get in cold water. But um, yeah, if you are listening and you're a real skeptic, give it a shot because it makes you feel good. Um, and it actually is really good mental reset. Um, do you find it, it helps quieten the mind or what are the actual sort of on the day benefits for your brain?
Hetty:
I think for me, I can't think about anything else other than what I'm doing in that moment because you have to be so aware, well, you are so aware of your body and you're so aware of your breath.
Um, and you literally have to almost put yourself into almost a meditative. Believe me, I'm not like, I'm not someone that's good at meditation, I'm really bad at yoga. I just can't seem to ever switch into that head space where I'm like Zen. Um, but this kind of forces you in the moment to be mindful and to really connect with your whole body to get in, especially when it's really cold.
'cause. You really can't just jump in and please, if you're listening and wanna give this a go, please don't just jump in. Um, you know, there's, there's a lot behind being safe in cold water. Um, and I think I was quite lucky, even though I was naive to what I was doing, I naturally took the approach of very gingerly and gently getting in and always sort of underplaying the amount of time I was in the water rather than overplaying it.
Mm. But I think it's, yeah, it's that meditative state that. Makes your mind quiet and then, when you get out, you have this euphoria of just, yeah, I did it. But also I think there's just a rush of happiness. Mm.
Rhona:
It's funny, isn't it? And you know, related to the cold dipping, we've been doing that with our other friend, Jess.
And I think, and we've already a few times in this episode, acknowledged that our friendship's been really beneficial for our battles with, overworking and rest. Um, but. It's amazing what it does when you have some other, have people who have your back. Um, as soon as we were able to open up and say, oh, I actually do really struggle to be nice to myself sometimes, and like you said, we'll have message conversations where one of us will message and say, I'm so tired today.
I'm actually gonna do nothing. And what we are wanting from each other is the other two to say. Good idea. You should definitely do that. Yeah. Um, and we're so lucky to have had that healthy friendship. Um, and we are very lucky 'cause we got it through , a community based sort of sports group. And that brings me back around to this whole idea that I have about.
Outdoors, exercise stuff, needing community bases to form these really healthy friendships, relationships. And we can all encourage each other to live this life where we're not putting too much pressure on ourselves where it is okay to say, I need to stop today. Or, or even to say, I can't handle doing this extra thing.
Sorry, I'm not gonna be able to help you with whatever it is somebody is, is asking you to do. I think we can help each other a lot in this. And I want to build more than just a podcast here. I want to build a community of people who are saying to each other, it's okay to take a rest day. Um, and you know, we've seen just in our small community in the, in what we have, it's called the Peak Gravel Gang.
Um, it's a cycling community in the peak district that. That nurture and looking after of people works in all ways. It works for the person who needs the mental health break by coming for a ride, but is stuck in a rut and doesn't feel able to come. Then the the community gets them out and gets them coming and they continue on and sometimes those people even then start doing that for other people and that when it comes full circle, it looks beautiful, but it also works when you are what?
Us where we need. We're so obsessed with working so hard physically, and we need that, that little break, and we need to do something more relaxed. I know I've used the gravel gang. To say I've gone for a ride today, but it was actually really relaxed. I was there to see other people. I was there to look at the beautiful countryside and I was there just to enjoy the riding.
I wasn't looking at numbers. I didn't look at my heart rate. I wasn't checking how, you know, how what my strain score was for the day, what impact it had on me. Be, and, and that's so healthy to come to step into that. From that end as well. I really hope that more and more we can have more healthy outdoors and adventure and sporting communities like that.
Between, the point where at school you have some clubs and stuff and then some people carry on with elite or high level amateur sport, and then you're kind of left with not much else. What are your thoughts on that?
Hetty:
Oh, there's so much here. I think community is so important. I think community makes us feel like we belong and we're part of something and it gives us that kind of base to come back to rely on check in with, um, as you said, it's been gravel gang and our friendship has been so important to me, especially over the past few years in learning to.
Rest and to juggle and to balance things. And I think, I think there isn't much out there necessarily that is, there is an increasing amount, but not much that is different to the traditional club. Uh, and I think that's what we need. We need these communities. I also think, if I could see one thing is like the first baby step, whatever it is, my first baby step would be like, let's remove the apology.
Let's not say sorry for. Actually looking after ourselves. Um, and that's probably, I know that's a slight side note, but that it'd be the first thing, if you're listening to this and you're thinking, don't have that community yet, hopefully we're gonna create it. But, um, what's one thing you can do right now?
And that is to, to take away the, sorry, the apology to that step that you're doing to look after yourself.
Rhona:
Yeah, I mean that was the very, very first few weeks of our friendship was basically me, you and Jess sort of apologising to each other because maybe we hadn't replied to a message quick enough or, oh, actually I'm not free that day to go for a run.
I'm so sorry. Like that was our fault. Or I'm actually on a night shift that day, but so I won't be able to run, but I am so sorry.
Hetty:
I torn my ankle, but I'm, I am really sorry. Yeah.
Rhona:
But there was no need for any of those apologies. So you've gotta look after yourself a bit. Yeah, exactly. Um, so I think this really ties up our kind of episode and our journey together through, rest days and exploring this all, um, really nicely.