Phoebe Sneddon Transcript

Rhona: Welcome back to the Rest Days community podcast. I hope everyone is having a restful winter time without too much of the festive stress and still finding time for outside adventures on these darker days. This week we have a brilliant guest, Phoebe Snedden, who many will already follow and think of as a superhuman.

She's a consultant in children's emergency medicine, which is notoriously one of the hardest jobs out there, and not just for lifestyle, but also for emotional burden. She spent over a decade racing bikes to varying levels. In this episode, shares a whole new sporting journey that she has just discovered.

She has two children, and much of this episode features on what we can all do to make the next generation happier and healthier. We delve deep into how she manages to find any balance amongst this and what keeps her afloat. I hope you enjoy.

 Phoebe, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for giving up your time. I'm very excited to chat to you about all things rest days. I haven't given you much information, but I have been asking lots of people this as their very first question. Why do you think I wanted to talk to you about this? 

Phoebe: Uh, probably 'cause I'm really bad at rest days.

I'm probably the worst person to ask about rest days. 

Rhona: Or maybe that makes you the best person. 

Phoebe: Maybe, maybe, maybe it should be like, do as I say and not as I do. 

Rhona: I was about to say, I actually think that the main reason I wanted to speak to you was 'cause you're a big advocate for other people to look after themselves.

Phoebe: Yes. I mean, I do look after myself. I think I'm a big advocate for putting yourself first in a well as a, as a woman and as a Mum. I think. We often don't put ourselves first. And I'm, I have always been a big advocate for getting those people to put themselves first. 

Rhona: Yes, there's a partic, a particular category of people there that will always end up being lower down the pile in their own heads.

Right. Um, and I, I think a lot about where that comes from. Do you think that that is a, a nature thing, a nurture thing? 

Phoebe: Um, no. I think there's a patriarchal society or issue. Um, I'm pretty sure that was not, it's not a, it's not natural. Um, and I think it's got worse and worse over the last or least century, you know?

I mean, women have always been, have always grafted, motherhood has always been hard. But if I look at my parents' generation, for example. You know, one, and maybe the generation before that, you know, one of you would work and one of you wouldn't, and one of you would run the household. And now everybody is working.

Everybody is doing,, running the household and managing the children. But the vast majority of that kind of unseen labor is done by women. And if you look at leisure time and statistics on like how much free time or time to yourself people get, men get far more time than women. And as a divorced person who's gone through like that and separation, who's then spoken to lots of other people about that, you can see that that's something that drives a huge wedge in people's relationships.

And some people just put up with it. And some people, you know, it's not the only reason why people get divorced, but you can see where some of that resentment builds. So. I think it, this is a creation of like modern, patriarchal society. Well, and something that's deep, that's been deep rooted from , prehistoric times.

Rhona: It's so true, and I'm really glad you brought up the leisure times that I've actually had some really interesting conversations about that recently. I think I've been trying to explain it to some of my male friends who are very sympathetic to women, not having the same experience in the world as them, but they still can't quite click with that.

I think they find that really hard and they, I, I've been having a lot of, but surely it's just a choice kind of coming back. It's, but it's not right. 

Phoebe: No, I think the problem is that a man thing, I mean, I, I can't speak for all men. This is, that's probably unfair generalization, but in, if we're gonna put it really simply, you know, a male way of thinking about it is, well, on Thursday I do five a side football.

That's what I do on a Thursday. Why would I do anything else? That's what's on a Thursday? Whereas, you know, I was talking to. My friend Kelly today at the gym, and we were offered some additional training on a Thursday, and she was, and I was like, oh, yeah, but if you've got childcare, you can definitely do it.

And she said, well, yeah, but I've got something on, on a Monday, something else on Tuesday, Wednesday we have rugby practice. If I'm out on Thursday, I'm out every night of the week, like, and I've gotta do this and I've gotta do that and I'll miss my son, I'll miss bedtime. Whereas I think if a man is working late, you know, Monday, Tuesday or whatever, and then they do something on Wednesday, they wouldn't, the load and the guilt and stuff, it's a different, it's, it's, it's, it's an emotional topic to a woman, whereas it's just a practical decision to a man if you're gonna break it right down.

And there's a lot of stereotyping in that, in that statement. And lots of people, there'll be a, a whole spectrum of people, um, that, that will fit somewhere in between. But when I think about doing stuff that I wanna do. There's an element of , will it fit in with what everyone else is doing? Can I juggle all the logistics of getting everybody where they need to be?

Can I organize some childcare for that? I am in my late thirties, I've been a Mum for, for nearly 10 years. Like I've made my peace, like if I wanna go and do something and I can make it work without causing too much disruption to everyone else, I will bloody well do it because I know it makes me a better Mum and it makes me a better person and I need that time and I need those things to look forward to.

But I think when your children are very little and you, you feel this overwhelming sense of responsibility to pro, to provide everything for them, if you haven't got a supportive partner at home that gives, not gives you that permission, but supports you in that time, then you just don't take it.

And the problem is it gets eaten away at you then in, it's too hard to bring it back into your life in 10 years time., You've given a whole 10 years to looking after children and all, all of a sudden they've got some independence. They can go with a friend to their football training.

Maybe they're a little bit older than that 15 years and they can sort themselves out and all of a sudden you're like, well, hang on a minute. What am I gonna do? It's, and then you are maybe menopausal and you've lost all your confidence, you've lost all your fitness. I mean, it doesn't have to be sport.

It could be an art class, it could be whatever you want, but having the balls then to go and do something like that for lots of women is really hard. 

Rhona: Oh, wow. You have hit on so many things there. I love it. I agree with, with everything you said, basically, but the. Like you're saying, women and men have been taught to make decisions like this, right?

Because of the way we are brought up our society, our everything in our influences. You know, it's not just as simple as that's how we are. Women always prioritize other people and men don't. And it's not, and nobody in this situation is bad or selfish. This is just how we're being taught and how we are.

It is so interesting. Um, and actually, interestingly, I was, uh, you know, in a couple of the other episodes we have talked about how maybe doing outdoor pursuits or doing pursuits that feel like they will make us healthier and happier is selfish, but it's actually not. It's better for everybody. 

Phoebe: Yes. And it, and it totally is.

But I think, you know, we, if you look at the world at the Mument and the world of social media and stuff, and, and I look, and I very much look at it with my, I guess, clinical hat on as to , what will my kids be exposed to? What, what is the shift? And, and it's tricky 'cause your own algorithm, everyone's algorithm is different, but I think on one side you've got the right pushing the trad wife, you know, and they're pushing that really hard.

And I think, oh my gosh, my, my daughter will have less rights than we had. And modeling this kind of self-sacrifice, being at home, never doing anything, it is like, I never ever expected that to come back,, in my life, you know, ever. Um, and then on the other side, you've got this, you've gotta be like skinny and strong and do everything and achieve everything.

And you've got these two polar opposites kind of clashing together. I think my own only job in this world is to model my behavior for them. So most of us feel the way that we feel because of the gender stereotypes and the gender norms that we grew up with. So if your Mum did loads of sport, then it's likely that you'll have do loads of sport because that's what was modeled to you.

And we know that children whose Mums are fit and active, stay in sport longer, achieve more, are more successful and are healthier individuals. So I think like whatever, like, you know, even if it's e even if it's not competitive sport, whatever you do, if you, if you can model your behavior to your children, 'cause that's what you want 'em to turn into, then that's the, the most important thing.

I mean, obviously, and look after your own self and your own mental health, but showing them that that's what you're doing. I just need this time, I'm gonna go do this. My and my children are incredibly understanding of that. We go and watch them do sport. So they would come and watch us do sport. It would never, they would never dream of it being any other way.

It's fair, we're a team, we all help each other. And that's a, I guess, a sort of family ethos that we've tried to just kind of develop. 

Rhona: Yeah. I think that's brilliant. And how often does that mean you have to do things that push you outta your comfort zone and scare you because you want that for your, for your children?

Phoebe: A lot, a lot. I would describe, I, I've always thought of myself as a bit of a coward. I suppose that's one of my internal, like, you're rubbish, you're a coward. You're not brave. Um, like little mantras that get, repeat that. I've tried very hard over the years to kind of get rid of, um.

Particularly with bike riding, mountain biking and stuff. I, I'm fairly cautious. I'm, I'm actually much braver on skis. Dunno why? Um, because I feel like actually the, the sort of risk of injury is probably higher. Um, but like often we'll be out riding stuff together and I'll have like, I'll have to ride stuff, which I'm comfortable riding 'cause I'm riding with the kids.

But like, it's important that we talk about, this used to scare me, but I've done it loads of times now, so it doesn't scare me. My, I'm really lucky that my daughter is, infinitely more social and outgoing than I am. Uh, she's unbelievably brave and I don't know where that's come from.

I mean in so social situations. So at nine she will happily ask where something is or, or, you know, like. Speak to a grownup if she needed to, for example, you know, ask where the toilet, she will get, she'll happily go up to the bar or the speak to the waiting staff and, and sort that out.

She wanted to try rugby recently, um, because I'd recently taken up rugby and I took her down to the training session. We weren't quite sure who to speak to or which group to join. She only knew one other person. There was only one other girl. The boys looked massive. She knew it was gonna be really physical and she was like, oh, I am a bit nervous.

And she can go off and do that. And I just thought, like me at nine, I would never have, I would've just been too scared to do that. Too shy. Too awkward, wouldn't have done it. And I think like you can spend your life pushing your child academically or from a performance point of view, but actually the little skills of independence that you can give them each day.

And for Sabine, the like micro. acts of feminism, like playing rugby and doing sport. Like I just, these are these little gifts that I keep trying to give her, but I think this, this is gonna be so useful to you in life. 

Rhona: I think that's amazing. I so much respect for her. I love that. And I also think that's exactly what I want for women and what I want even for like myself or for my friends.

Um, 'cause when I am in a restaurant and I ask where the toilet is, I normally start with, I'm so sorry. Like, why am I sorry, 

Phoebe: Sabine never apologize. She'd be like, excuse me, where is the toilet? Like your sign. Yes. It's not obvious. And I'm nine. 

Rhona: That's so good. But you know, I think that you are not giving yourself that much credit because I think inside you might not feel very confident, but I think that you are acting like that in front of her maybe sometimes.

And she's picking that up. I think she's, I think you're having to push yourself to do it. But you're giving her the example. I don't know you well, Phoebe, but that's the per, that's the Phoebe that I would say I see from her externally. I think you seem really brave and like you would stand up and say something.

Phoebe: Yeah. And I think that as a skill I've developed as a doctor, so like, put my doctor hat on, like, I can do anything. I'm Dr. Snedden. Oh, no one's ever called me Dr. Sned. Everyone calls me Phoebe. But like that, the joy of pediatrics, like I, I'm, that's me. I've got that persona on, I can be in charge, I can make tough decisions, I can have difficult conversations, but me as the bike rider or me as the Mum the like social anxiety kicks in a little bit.

Um, but I just think. As you get old you do care less what people think and you still care. Like, I still care, but it's easier to rationalize it and I just think, oh, I really want to go to this. Yes, people might laugh at me or, people think it's ridiculous that I've took up playing rugby this summer as a 38-year-old woman.

Like, well, I think that's 

Rhona: brilliant. 

Phoebe: , I don't know why we did that. It, it, we fell into this like with Kelly, my training partner because her dad started the team. But it was such a liberating experience because like you say, we need more community. I felt I needed more community. Cycling can be a very lonely sport.

I can't get the like to do the group stuff that we have locally. I can't get the hours of training in to keep up. I'm not unfit, but I just, that conditioning that you need on the bike is hard. I was ready for a new challenge. And then you get bunged in with all these amazing women of all different ages, loads of new people to meet a new social circle.

And everybody shared on the WhatsApp why they decided to come to rugby. It had me in floods of tears because there's just, I feel emotional just talking about it, but the amount of people who are like, I've had the kicked out of me. The confidence knocked out of me life has dealt me this crappy hand, this crappy hand, this crappy hand.

And I just thought, do you know what if I come to this, I could learn something new and meet some nice people or like I used to play 10 years ago and my kids have never seen me play, but I wanna play. Just being part of this little bubble is amazing. And I wish everybody could find something like that because it's so inspiring and it is, it's, that's so beautiful supporting women, isn't it?

Women 

Rhona: supporting women? There's nothing 

Phoebe: like, 

Rhona: yeah. Yeah. That's so beautiful. And do you enjoy it? Is it fun? Yeah, I mean, 

Phoebe: it's like, it makes my brain hurt because I've never watched rugby. I've never played rugby, trying to learn it all. But I've been watching the Women's World Cups been on. I've been watching that religiously.

I've absolutely adored it. I love the team element of it, the way it all works together. I love that it doesn't matter what size or shape you are, what age you are, how fit you are. Everyone's got a part to play. It's so inclusive and I can't imagine saying to people like, rugby's really inclusive, but it is.

And if you don't wanna get knocked around, that's fine. They'll work ways round that. Um, and then we played our first match a couple of weeks ago and I was so nervous , but once you got going and the competitive nature takes over, you are like, do you know what, this is actually okay.

And yeah, you get knocked around and you take a few hits, but. You're like, I took those women down and I've got a lot of repressed aggression from being nice to people for 20 years at the NHS. So all of that came around on the pitch. I was like, all of a 

Rhona: sudden, I can lie. That was so funny 

Phoebe: to the ground.

Rhona: That's brilliant. Oh my god, I think there's so many, so much interesting stuff in that. So you felt like this was a space where it was gonna be open and that you could belong. Um, and then you mentioned that you can be brave when you're at work and you've got your doctor hat on. And when you're doing that, you feel, I'm sure there's loads of imposter syndrome there, but you're on, you're like hidden behind that identity of, being a doctor that means something to people.

They're not gonna question it probably too much though. They might ask you if you're the nurse and maybe ask you to wipe their bum, but, mostly it's got some, it's got a meaning to people and you can kind of hide behind that. But I think for a lot of people, they can't get to the point of being in something where there is an image with it because they just can't see themself ever being able to be in that.

You manage to do that with the rugby, but for example, cycling, uh, you know, if we do go back to the complicated world of cycling, it's really hard I think for people who have never cycled before to ever imagine that they would be part of that community or that they would be able to call themselves a cyclist.

Yeah. 

Phoebe: And that was me 20 years ago. Dad was a cyclist and we just thought it was so lame that we were, it was this guy. He did borrowing my Mum tights to cycle I in, we were like, no, this is not for us. It, me and my sister. And then obviously we ended up lured into it.

Cycling was weird back then. It was niche. Do you know what I mean? Not everybody did it and it was, you could just turn up with your, I had just like a little cycling jersey and shoes, and I remember thinking what bargain they were and like there wasn't, I'm sure there was plenty of snobbery in it, but I wasn't exposed to it in that way.

And then I think we are kind of coming full circle in that there are more inclusive spaces for cycling, but it's hard to get people to see that. I think you've gotta nudge people into it. Force people, not force people into it, but the first step is the hardest step. Do you know what I mean?

Into something the first time you go will be the worst time, the most nerve-wracking time every other time after that is easy. And I always think that about work as well. Like the first time you have to do a really difficult procedure or a really tough conversation. Do you know what I mean? I just think from a psychological point of view.

This is the worst time. This is the hardest time I'm ever gonna have to do this. The first time you ever have to cannulate someone, or the first time you had to cannulate a tiny baby, all the equipment feels weird and you just think every time after this I will know at least half more than I know now.

And it's the same. Like you just have to think the first time is the hardest and then every, every time after that will be a little bit easier. 

Rhona: Yeah. Job change day to be that day for me, like just that dread of that day, I'm gonna be so rubbish, but after that I won't be as rubbish. 

Phoebe: And it's like I've set myself easy goals and I do this.

It's the same with all these things set yourself something really achievable. So at first day of the job, your only job is to learn three nurses' names. Do you know what I mean? And learn where the toilet is and where to put your bag. And if that's, if that's what you come out of the day having done, you've achieved your goal for that day.

Going to rugby, it was like, just go get in the car, turn up, say hello, and meet people. And then everything else after that, you've got there, you've felt awkward. You might not have worn the right shoe. I didn't know what shoes to wear like with my trainer's be, alright? And then everything else.

You are looking around and you're like, everyone else is nervous. Even the people that clearly know what they're doing. 'cause we've not all played together before. It's fine. You, that'll be the worst time. And then after that it'd be easier. 

Rhona: You know, we started this conversation, the very start of it with you saying that you're maybe not a good example.

I think you're an incredible example. I mean, I expect you're probably very physically exhausted and I think you probably don't get enough actual physical rest. I'm not doubting that. You are putting snippets of time aside for yourself that keep you going, and I think that's really, really cool.

You're setting an amazing example, 

Phoebe: which I do lots of things that I like to do because I know that I'm a horrible person without them. But what I am guilty of is cramming, I have reflected on where that comes from. Some of it is probably a pathological need to achieve and difficulties with rest, which I think lots of us suffer with.

But some of it is also , I think an a sort of subconscious thing that comes from working in medicine and witnessing people's worst days of their lives. I'm not talking about people die, like di dying is an element of that. Okay. But also life changing disability. And in my job it's, it's children.

So I'm looking at it from parental point of view. All this could be taken away from me. 'cause something could happen to my child. And so there's this, undercurrent of pressure. I do try and ignore, but sometimes you don't know when life is gonna just pull the rug from beneath you.

And that happened to me with my divorce. You think you're gonna have one life and then. You end up living a completely different life. So I'm always like, we got, I've got the opportunity to do this. We cram this in even though we can't really fit in because we've got school, we've got something else.

We're gonna fit it in here and then we're gonna go here and everyone will be tired, but it's gonna be okay. 

Rhona: Oh yeah. Yeah. So I to Nothing is a given in life. It's definitely true. Nothing you, you don't get anything for, for guaranteed. No. And it's interesting. And now you're able to do, you know something, this rugby, right?

You're coming to it at a different point in your life. You're coming to it and you have those of other commitments . You're never gonna become a professional rugby player. Now. And if you do, that would be fair play. 

Phoebe: That would be like a Eddie The Eagle. But that would be made into a film. Yeah, 

Rhona: yeah, yeah, exactly.

We would all be, we all wanna know that story, but, but that's not, but you have done different levels of sport? So how did it change from you pushing yourself really competitively to being able to do something now where it is just for fun, just a head space, you know, that's outside the house and stuff.

Phoebe: So I spent, I'm trying to think how long, maybe 15 years racing bikes at different levels. And it was eat sleep dream bikes. You know, I was working, um, pre-children training, racing, and then had my daughter and was like, I'm not gonna let this stop me, keep going. Raced during my pregnancy six months after she was born was racing, no less than that, maybe back racing thing.

And I managed for quite a while. And then my second pregnancy hit me really hard. I was really sick, couldn't, couldn't maintain that at all. And the, the level that I was competing at had dwindled a little bit over the kind of years building up because I'd been through, uh, a tricky divorce and I'd had to kind of completely reorganize and remanage my life.

We had COVID. I think it was actually COVID just stopping having no pressure. Like the pressure at work was insane, but having no pressure to do anything else with anyone or go anywhere, like I really enjoyed. And it wasn't until somebody like forcibly removed all that pressure. I was like, hang on a minute, am I enjoying thrashing myself to this level?

Never quite being good enough at anything because I'm spread so thin. I, I'm, I'm never gonna achieve, I mean, not my potential because I didn't have any potential. But like, I'm never gonna achieve what I wanted to achieve if I, like, if I'd had all the time in the world and resources to train or do all the things I wanted to do.

So like after that, I had Torben and life changed again slightly because Scott started working away and I, and I needed to concentrate on the final bit of my career. Financially, and like I trained for ages, I had to become a consultant and, and I had to concentrate on work for like the last couple of years.

So I just parked everything, gave myself the space, and I said to myself, you, you are, how was I thirty six or something. You can come back to cycling when you're 40 because at the moment, at that point, I was competing against people who were 25 and I was too old compared to them.

Too tired and too busy running after two children to feel competitive. And I did do some racing because I enjoyed it and I had some nice, reasonably good results for me. But it was like, oh, hang on a minute. This is kind of nice because I can just come and the kids can race and I can race and there's no pressure.

And then the last year or so, I had to just change how we worked at home because my partner was working away. I was essentially back to being a single parent again. Juggling everything. And I wanted a different challenge, so I thought, you know what, I'm gonna try and get really strong. So I joined the gym because I thought I can do that.

It's an hour here, an hour there when the kids are at school. Then that progressed because I can't do anything by halves. And again, like, like sort of super focused and I get over involved. And then Kelly was like, do you wann do Hyrox .. I was like, no, no, no, don't. But I said yes because she wanted to do it in a pair.

And I thought, it's fine. We'll never get tickets. Tickets are really hard to get. I'll do the training, love the training , I can do a circuit training so it comes out my ears. Anyway, obviously we did get tickets, so now we're training for hyrox . and now we're doing rugby and now we're still riding bikes and you have to do loads of running for hyrox ..

And so I'm training five times a week and we're back to me. Not putting loads of pressure on myself, but doing loads of stuff. But I enjoy it now because it's on my terms and it's not to, yeah, it's different. It's not to meet the demands of sponsors or race schedule or whatever. It's like, what can I challenge myself to do?

I wanna do 10 pullups, right? That's what we're working on this month. I wanna do, I wanna knock some time off my 5K time. We'll do that this month. And that's been really liberating. I've become so one dimensional with cycling. Now I can still ride my bike, but I can do everything else. 

Rhona: Do you think if it hadn't been, I guess, kind of forced on you by, the, a global pandemic and life circumstances, you would actually have been able to take this step back and, and go back into physical pursuits with a bit more joy and not being stuck in that hamster wheel?

Phoebe: I think I, it would've come at a different time. I think I would've had to do it a little bit after having Torben. I think if you look back at 30-year-old Phoebe who's, you could have it all, you can definitely be a Mum and race and do it, and work a ridiculous job and do stuff. Yeah, you, you can.

There's other little sacrifices in that circle, and it very much depends on who your partner is and how supportive they are. And you know, if you've got really good family support, you, you need a full team around you. I was looking at racing this winter actually, and whether I could do a couple of cross races because the kids are racing and I was comparing it to rugby and I was like, why do I feel that rugby's more achievable than cyclo cross?

Because rugby is at a rugby club with a bar and a room and a warm room. And families and a whole community that comes with it. And there's still a community in cyclo cross, don't get me wrong, but I can turn up, bring my daughter, she can watch, the subs will be subbed in and out.

People will, she can sit with the subs. She's nine, so she'll enjoy that. She likes being part of it anyway, and it's an hour, like maybe an 80 minutes game. And then a bit of time beforehand. Cross is, I need a pitman. I need someone to watch my children. I need to be there to warm up and pre ride the course.

Then I've gotta race. The kids have gotta race. I've, I've gotta get everybody there and a jet wash to like, I, the, the logistics of it is unobtainable for me at the moment without a whole team. It 

Rhona: sounds wild logistically. 

Phoebe: Yeah. So it's like, no, we'll just support the kids to do that. I'll do rugby because then I still feel like I've got this fun little competitive goal.

Plus there's the community team element of it that I think sometimes gets a bit lost in cycling. I've raced on cycling teams. It's a different vibe because someone wins the race. Do you know what I mean? Not the team. 

Rhona: Yeah. 

Phoebe: Like it is a win. 

Rhona: Yeah. Yeah. 

Phoebe: But it's not the, the vibe and the ethos of it is different.

Rhona: Yeah. Okay. We talked a lot about, there's a lot of community mentions. What do you think about from your, um, professional hat on, what do you think about community and health, uh, physical and mental, especially for children? Do you know what, 

Phoebe: it's so important and it's, I wish we could make it more accessible and I wish we could make it, I mean, not compulsory, but I wish it was more encouraged.

Do you know what I mean? I dunno what incentive you could give kids and it needs to come through school and education. Um, I'm really lucky Sabine School do loads of sport. They do an extra hour of sport on a Monday and a Wednesday, which is free after school. So it's after school childcare and it's free and it's physical activity, which I think is just brilliant.

And I'm a school governor and advocate really hard for it and we'll try and keep the funding for that as long as possible. 'cause it's so important. Um, I was down at the Sabine, wanted to try rugby. I took her down to the rugby club on Sunday and you just look and there's under sevens, eights, tens, twelves, fourteens, sixteens playing.

Almost all boys. Same when we go to football. Then she plays on a women's football, uh, girls' football team. And there's a bit more, there's more girls obviously playing football. Um. But I think what, and I think to myself as a professional, what is the barrier to this that the families that I see in inner city Sheffield, like why can't they do this?

And I think because the boots cost money. The subs is like football subs is what, 150 quids for the season. That's a lot of money. You know, we can afford that for to play. A lot of families haven't got that kind of money at the moment. Oh, you need a car to get to matches, you need the time to take them.

I struggle enough managing Torben. If you've got four or five kids and your life is chaotic, it's too difficult, especially they're all in different places there is a poverty and deprivation barrier to this kind of physical activity and this kind of organized sport.

And yes, there are things like park run, which are free, but you still need an invested, engaged parent who is free to take you and get you to that place and not. All children wanna run. Do you know what I mean? You need another element to it for a lot of kids. And so it has the movement and the activity has to come through school and I, I, I wish we could do more.

Rhona: Yeah. And in especially Sheffield, I think inner city Sheffield, uh, culturally, a lot of sports are just not suitable they don't fit with the cultural activities of a certain group. They're not going the, they clash with the time that you go to the Mosque, they're, there's no other girls running who have their head covered.

So the one girl who does is gonna feel really awkward about it. Um, you know, there's a lot of complicated barriers there. I think as well, 

Phoebe: if I won the euro millions luck, which is obviously not gonna happen because I probably haven't even bought, got organized to buy a ticket. But I would, I, and I think about this a lot when I'm like.

On my commute to work. I would take that money and I would put that money into women like girls sport I would do two things with it. I would put a trauma informed therapist in every school and I would have, I would pour money into women's and girls sport.

You just needed to look at the rugby World Cup and the women playing and the inspiration and the young that the young girls get from that. And the role models that these people, we've seen that with the lioness. I'm very down on where women's rights is at the moment and where it's going for young girls growing up in the uk.

But the one thing that I'm very positive about is that we, and it could be better, but we've got these brilliant role models coming through and they're finally starting to get that kind of mainstream media attention and that just needs pushing so hard because the girls, you will know the mental health crisis that we have of these girls.

This is what they need. The most protective thing you can give your child is a hobby. Growing up, and I, I say this all the time at work I say to you, what do you say to these teenage? What do you do in your spare time? I do nothing. And you get your self worth from your phone and it's so yeah, which, 

Rhona: oh my God, imagine.

I know and it opens doors to everything else in life, doesn't it? It's not just that, it's that once you've done one activity, especially a physical activity where you used your body and you kind of proved to yourself that you could do that, you can, you're then much more likely to be able to try any other.

So even if the first one you tried wasn't for you, maybe it doesn't make you feel part of the group that you wanna feel part of, you're way more likely to get into others, but you're also just gonna have so much more confidence in yourself and everything else in life, which is very well proven with stats.

You know, we don't even need to, doesn't need to be said, but it just opens doors everywhere. 

Phoebe: Yeah. And you meet a different group of friends from school, um, particularly, you know, if you do your sport outside of school, so then you've got a, a safety net of a separate group of friends. So if you're having difficulty with your friends at school, you've got another group of friends.

You getting your interest in your self-worth and your self-confidence from another aspect. So if you're not academic or you find some aspects of school difficult, there's another, there's something else to feed into your, what we call your, like your confidence jar and your positivity jar and the, and the, and your self-image and your self-worth.

If you're moving your body, you're gonna feel better about your body. We know that we're starting to slowly see a bit of a shift in terms of like resistance on weights and stuff. And I mean, not young children, but young people and give these girls and boys because there's plenty of boys that have nothing better to do.

And then they end up in violent crime and exploitation. Get 'em in the gym, get 'em building some muscle, get 'em feeling those endorphins, like if they don't wanna do it outside 'cause it's cold and dark, people should be in the gym from maybe, probably 12, 13, 14. Um, we need these safe places for the kids to meet and, uh, and do stuff that aren't outside.

That's one of the reasons why children aren't more active. But like, you know that certainly, and this is City Sheffield. If you are a 14-year-old boy and you've got nothing best to be doing, you could easily be criminally exploited.

Rhona: Yes. To all the people listening, Phoebe does see, sadly, a lot of the worst of the world. So 

Phoebe: So work in, I probably should have explained that I work in the children's emergency department, so I see. Yeah, the worst of the worst. 

Rhona: Full time. Mm-hmm. So it's not, it's not all bad, but Yes.

Yeah, exactly. And then again, yeah, feeling of belonging, having a community within that, you're already gonna have so much more, I think sometimes, you do a bit of school sport and esp and then there's this point where only the people who do sports at a high level continue.

So you're coming to the end of school and you're going, you're leaving school. That's a huge drop off point, especially for girls, isn't it? And how do we tell all those girls that this, that they are one allowed to have fun? Because from that point onwards, many of them just stop having frivolous fun. And like, how do we tell them that doing physical activities can be fun?

And isn't, it's not just a purpose to win a gold medal.

Phoebe: I, I think this is a huge force, secondary school sport. Um, we were talking about this right at the, um, having Sunday lunch, uh, with my family. Because my family were laughing at me for playing rugby, and my Mum was saying, oh my goodness, if your school, primary school PE teacher could see you now after repeatedly telling my parents this, that I had no sporting ability whatsoever, and that basically should have written me off at seven.

They found the whole thing hilarious. And I, and that was a very competitive, sporty primary school that I went to. And I think this is the problem with secondary school sports. Like it should be inbuilt into every day. They should be doing some movement every day,

and we should be encouraging them to do sports that aren't necessarily, or activities that aren't necessarily competitive. So things like yoga, Pilates, and whatever those kind of things, weights in the gym like it doesn't have to be the traditional team sports. We do quite a lot of climbing as a family and that doesn't necessarily have to be competitive and it's problem solving.

And you don't, you can, I mean, my daughter's very slim and spidery, so it suits her body type rather than being necessarily big and strong, which tends to help you more in school sports and I think we have to change the school's ethos around sport. So, you know, it's not just about being on the first 15 for football or whatever it need you need or rugby, it needs to be about everybody moving and everybody enjoying it.

Because then I think it's, if it's built into your habitual day then, and you do that for however many years you're at secondary school, you're much more likely to hold onto that as you come off to university, college or whatever else because you're so used to having to do it. 

Rhona: I think, um, at that point in secondary school, there's this change in attitude because, like you say, people who are aiming to be in the top teams, and if you're not really in the top teams, are you even supposed to do it?

And all these words like pain, suffering, sacrifice start coming into it because, you know, I'm not gonna pretend people who win Olympic medals. All those three words are relevant to stuff that they've been through for sure. But barely anybody is winning Olympic medals?

They, and for all of those other people, those three words don't have to have anything to do with it. But I still hear coaches saying to people, well, if you're not willing to sacrifice, there's no point in you being here. Or like, no pain, no gain. What, a load, of nonsense. 

Phoebe: Whereas I would rather see everybody out like moving around, just playing, I don't know, a big game of dodge ball, you know?

I don't know anything. It doesn't have to be. And, and we can see that with why things like paddle and pickleball and stuff have become popular because tennis is hard. Bloody work. Squash is hard. Bloody work. So let's make something that anybody, I mean I, my daughter played pickleball recently.

She said, I was like, what's pickleball? She said, it's like tennis but lame. And what she meant is it was just a bit slower, a bit easier. And that's what we need. We need these sp things that are still really enjoyable, but like, don't have to be thrashed. It's not cross country in January. No. No one to that.

Yeah, 

Rhona: totally. And I think, I think climbing was a good example that you gave. Um, and I think the reason it's taking off so much so quickly around the country, you know, you see there's climbing walls everywhere now, um, is because you can turn up relatively anonymously. You don't have to people, everybody's kind of doing their own thing and there is all abilities there.

Everybody can get up something at a climbing wall. I mean, unless you go to a, a really special climbing wall. But everybody should be able to get up something pretty much, and you can get some enjoyment, achievement community from it. There seems to be an attitude within it that is really, really positive.

Phoebe: Yes. And, and I always think, yes, there are more men when we go to climbing wall. There are more men, but there's still a really good amount of women. And what I particularly like, and I dunno whether it's our local climbing wall 'cause I haven't had a lot of experience in other places, but like there's a lot of teenage girls and there are not many places that I go now.

From an activity point of view or physical activity point of view where there's lots of young girls kind of working together and I just think that's what you do in your spare time. You hang out the climber wall, like that's so much better than all the alternatives, you know? 

Rhona: Yeah. It's great.

I think as well as probably I, I've, we also, our wall have quite a lot of teenage girls and groups of teenage boys and they, a lot of the time they're just standing the same way they would be out on the street. They're not actually doing that much climbing, but I love it. I'm like, yes, because their parents are obviously really happy that they've gone there instead of standing out on the street.

So they probably say, yeah, yeah, go to the wall. That's fantastic. And then so what if they don't do any climbing, even if they do just come to meet their friends, it's way better and they're around an environment where people are moving and stuff. 

Phoebe: Yeah, absolutely. I just. I just wish we could make these things easier and more accessible for everybody or incorporate them, like really incorporate them into the school curriculum.

It's compulsory that you do maths and English and science. It should be compulsory that you move. I, I mean, to me every day really. I mean, you know, not that want these kids being thrashed morning, noon, and night, but I just think that there should be, PE should be as part of the school day every day.

Rhona: Yeah. I actually, yeah, I definitely agree. I mean, everybody has to look after their body. We only have one body. You know that better than anybody. But not everybody has to do maths in their life. No, 

Phoebe: exactly. And it's like, you know, it doesn't have to, it should just be like this, oh, we're doing half an hour's worth of yoga because it's good for everyone's mental health. It doesn't need to be we're gonna make you run five miles round the field. There can be different options. And I know this is complex and cost money and there's no money in the education system, but I, but what I, and what's frustrated me about the last few government, well probably all of the governments we've probably ever had, is that it's so shortsighted.

If you invest in children, in children's health and young people, then those people grow up to be healthy adult. So who contribute to the tax system, contribute to society, and then you have a better economy like it. The investment is like a hundred fold. So put your money into children, put your money into young people's sport and physical activity and mental health, and you will have healthy, well-rounded individuals that cost the state much less and contribute much more.

But you know, getting a politician to see it that way is impossible. 

Rhona: It's too late. I know you'd think they'd understand that. 'cause it's money, you know, and I normally make go, I'm like, but it will reduce so much suffering in the future and stuff. But they don't care about that. They care about the money and, but the money also makes sense.

Yeah. That's the annoying part. But the 

Phoebe: problem is that you are looking, that we are looking, if you are investing in a primary school child now you are looking at 10, 20 years in the future future. No politicians, none of our current or previous batch of politicians are interested in 10, 20 years in the future.

They're interested in their term and what they're gonna get. And I, it just, it's so shortsighted. 

Rhona: Yeah. It's a very frustrating system that we have to fight against. And that kind of always brings back around to, it ends up being the responsibility of community projects and non-government associated groups, charities who end up having to fill these gaps and take responsibility for it.

Um, and I think that's frustrating and it shouldn't be their job, but also it does gimme hope that there are nice people out there. 

Phoebe: Yeah. And like any kind of community project that's looking after young people, particularly like it does, you're right, it reminds, it's like such a nugget of hope, isn't it?

You're like, there are good people and there are people willing to give up their time. And I look at that when I see the volunteers that coach our kids cycling club or help out the rugby club or come and coach us rugby people giving up their time. And I, I know how precious time is to people now, like we're all so stretched and pushed.

And so I think that if you are a person volunteering, coaching, supporting, even if it's looking after somebody's children so that they can go and do something, you are a real gem and you real like that, that is just such an important act of kindness. Um, and I hope that you're recognised for that.

Rhona: Yeah, a hundred percent. The, um, the other age as well in life where women become, I mean actually there's probably two more, there's two more good categories, but, you know, post around the age where you start to have children and post having children is a really vulnerable age and an age where lots of people's physical activity drops off.

And sometimes where isol, you know, you are left without a community, especially if you had a really active high level sporting community before. I've seen loads of people suddenly isolated because they can't be part of that maybe anymore. And then you've also got the kind of menopause, empty nest stage as well is a really hard time for physical activity.

Phoebe: You know, as we know women in sort of, uh, sports science and medical research, it's just been such an afterthought. And it's only really in recent years that people have actually taken notice of how hormones affect performance, how are cycle affects performance, how are age menopause, all that kind of shift, the postpartum kind of journey and recovery, you know, it's only.

I mean, when I was pregnant with Sabine, so she's, she's 10 next year, people were horrified that I was still riding bike, that was still moving, that was running, that was skiing, that was doing all this stuff. Um, there was a six year age gap between Sabine and Torben were, and the culture change in those six years was phenomenal.

It was almost expected that I would keep moving and I would be able to do stuff, and I'm so grateful for that. And because we've had really great role models, Lizzie, Deignan, people like that, showing in the cycling world that you can do that and they're in all. All worlds of sport.

And in fact, the interesting thing about the rugby, how many of those players on that team have children and are Mums? And I was like, oh, that's that just so important. They were all like, you know, obviously their kids were coming to the pitch and stuff and I was like, yes, we need more of this. We need to see more professional women who have children.

Because if you ke if we can encourage people to keep moving like, uh, during their pregnancy, it will improve their recovery time afterwards. And then they're more likely to hold onto that. Um, and then, yeah, I mean menopause, I'm not quite there yet. Or although, some people would say I am probably perimenopause is the way that my brain falls apart all the time.

But again, loads more research going into it, loads more awareness. People are asking the right questions, they're getting on the right treatment and we're seeing less suffering. And hopefully that will translate into more movement.

And the other thing that I learned recently was how. Girls bodies change during puberty. Obviously I know how girls bodies change during puberty, but how that affects sport performance. And so actually you'll see as you go through puberty, a real dip in your sporting performance. And that's one one of the reasons the really sporty girls tend to drop out of sport is 'cause suddenly you are not as good, you're not hitting your the same marks.

We need to educate coaches, particularly at high level sports who are developing these girls into to say, it's okay, this year's gonna be tough for you. We can see you've just had this massive growth spurt. Your hormones are changing. We will support you through this.

Everything's gonna be laxed high risk of injury. They were saying that they find jumping proprioception really difficult. If we can educate coaches and support 'em through that and then they'll carry on with it. 

Rhona: Yeah. That's super interesting and important, isn't it? And it's also a very vulnerable age where if coaches say.

Things just slightly wrong. People will feel it's on them and they might start punishing themselves for it. And you know, particularly in female athletes of the teenage age , eating disorders are gonna become an immediate way of, well maybe if I lose weight, that will make me better. Yeah.

You know, that's the, and kind of classical, and I think maybe slightly improving, but still, in some groups and studies, they still reckon maybe a third of, you know, girls at that age and high level sport still have eating disorders. 

Phoebe: We need to take the weight element out of those, out of that environment.

You know, we know bias slightly different in the tour de femme this year because there was a lot of weight loss to do those mountain stages. But the vast majority of our pro athletes, if you look at the runners, they look. Not heavier, that's the wrong term, but more muscular. They look better fueled our cyclists.

We've got people out there saying, no, if I eat more, I ride better. Put out better watts. And we need that. We need more people saying it doesn't matter. You're gonna gain weight through puberty. You're gonna get heavier, you're gonna get a little bit fatter. And then as you shoot up it will even out.

And so we need to take those conversations and those comments out of that. But you know, this is a, yeah, the start, we're starting to see that the research is only just being done. The educate, like we will change the ethos, but it's, it's taking time. 

Rhona: Yeah. I think really weight should be taken out of all kind of conversations around health.

And that is kind of a bit controversial because obviously there are some weights that predispose you to risk problems, but almost never does actually just. Banging on about weight ever actually help that problem. And you're not gonna get somebody to start taking up activities that are helpful for them and make them healthy.

If that's all you focus on, it just immediately makes the conversation impossible. We should just be taking it out fully. It should just be nothing to do with weight. We should just be saying, well actually, if you're really healthy and you find something and you enjoy, that's, that'll be great for you.

Phoebe: And you can, you can be heavy and fit like you, you just need to look at like the, uh, England Roses front row. Some of those girls are big girls, big strong women, and my God, can they shift? And my God, can they perform at a, at a ridiculously high level. And so, you know, why are we, we sh we need to be championing these people.

If you've got a, if you've got a daughter who is broad in the shoulders, clearly packed on muscle, because we're all different. We all have different body compositions and they wanna, and, and that's why I love like Ilona Maher and some of the other rugby girls who've been obviously on social media being like, I was always told it was too big, but, but now I've found my niche.

Play your strength, celebrate that. There's no point trying to spend 10 years, 20 years of your life trying to be a different body shape if that's the way you are built. You need to be strong and healthy. 

Rhona: And if you are the wrong body shape for the thing you love, do it anyway.

That's the other, because I think people are put off, they're like, oh, well you won't be very well suited to that if you love running, but you are not somebody who's gonna be really, really slight and bounce up hills. Who cares? We just have to make everybody else say those things to make it welcoming.

Right. 

Phoebe: Yeah. I think that's where you need to take the misogyny out of sport, because I think a lot of those comments, I mean, a lot of those comments come from women, but a lot of those comments come from men. And I think when they come from women, they come from an internal misogynistic kind of. Themes that run through all of us.

We're all guilty of it, and we've all spent our lives being compared to one another and for the male gaze and for certain subtypes of beauty. If we can just try and move away from that, a lot of people will be a lot happier. 

Rhona: Absolutely. Okay. I'm gonna circle back to your life again if that's okay.

So obviously doing physical activity is a, is an amazing mental break from your work because that takes a huge toll on you, but your work is also quite physical. So are there any things that you do where you do take a break, you let yourself stay still, or, or are you just not able to do that? Does that, is that too much for you?

Phoebe: No, I do, I do. I try and have an hour every day at the end of the day where I just, so I'm an early to bed kind of girl, um, much better in the mornings, not a night owl. Uh, despite working a lot of late shifts, um, and a lot of nights, but I. I try and have an hour where I watch TV or read before bed and I just calm everything down.

'cause otherwise I don't sleep very well either. Um, and my brain races a lot, which is why I like physical activity. And I like doing that where I cannot think of anything else other than surviving is probably the wrong term, but like a rugby. My brain is trying so hard to work out where should I be?

Where is the ball coming, what's, am I gonna get pumelled, do I need to stop this person? And it's the same on the bike. It's why I've always preferred, or I prefer off road rather than road because I'm looking at the scenery and I'm concentrating on not falling off. And it's the same with running like I needed.

I need that kind of tunnel vision. Can't think of anything worse than going to the cinema. I would really struggle to sit for a film. Unless it was in a particularly engaging film that I really wanted to see it, it's probably good for me to do that, but I find it difficult.

I really like reading and I read absolute trash and I need that, mental escapism. If I'm in a book, um, I can rest all day long, but yeah, that's great. I should rest more. But there is always something to be done. Like when you, we have four children when we're all together, there's two children all the time at home.

Everybody's got activities, there's a house, there's a dog, there's work, there's emails. So, and I, I've got one of those brains where I kind of need to tick everything off before I can sit down. So I do try. 

Rhona: I think we have similar brain types, but you have a lot of recognition of how you work and it sounds like you actually have, have found something that works for you and keeps you mentally balanced and physically balanced.

Um, but it's quite easy to to let it run away a little bit because the physical activity feels good for your brain. It's like forced mindfulness, isn't it? But it's easy to sometimes let that become too much in your life and take over a bit. 

Phoebe: Yeah, and someone was asking me why I do the things that I do, like long distance bike riding and that kind of stuff.

And it was a funny moment of realization to say to them that I love the feeling of complete physical exhaustion and I don't know if that has come from working like. You finish the end of four, when we used to do seven nights, now four nights, and now I'm a consultant. I don't have to do that in the same way.

I still work hard, but when you'd finish like a really hard block of shifts and I would cry before going in and I would feel sick because I was so tired. But when you finish it and your whole body hurts, and your brain is like a rung out sponge and you lie in bed, there's a feeling of a weird euphoria of a lightness.

It's like every, it's like your soul floats away and you go to sleep and you get that, you know, if you've ridden for 12 hours and then you finish something, or a long distance race over a couple of days or whatever. Some of my favorite moments, favorite personal moments in life. Like, not like I'm giving in birth seeing Taylor Swift, but like lying in bed.

Just thinking there's not a ounce of energy left in me. Everything is gone from me. And I think it's a perverse enjoyment because it's so unhealthy. It's so unhealthy to give that much of yourself to work. And I know that, but I still do it, because it's, I don't know whether it's a learned thing from work or I, it's not from my childhood, from my childhood.

We never did anything like that. I dunno where it comes from, but that feeling of, and I think it's like I, this is your permission now. You have worked hard enough now and I need to try and bring that. Whatever that bar is, I need to bring it down to a normal level so it's not like too total exhaustion.

It's just like you did the food shopping and the laundry rest. 

Rhona: Is it because in those moments your brain is quiet though? Do you think that's part of the enjoyment? Finally you're so tired that your brain isn't giving you grief? Not that it gives you loss, but it's just, it's not being like, oh, there's this to do and this to do and that to do and, and it's not thinking about 20 things at once.

It's just nice and quiet. Yeah. And so maybe that is some of the real enjoyment, is that the finally your brain is is quiet. 

Phoebe: Yeah. It's like, ah, I actually can't think about the decisions that are made. As a doctor, there's lots of things that you can mull over all the time, and I'm sure the people feel like that, but like, and there're a little, the, the upsetting things that you see at work most of the time.

You function day to day. Like those things are locked in a box, they're away. We're very good at com compartmentalizing. But then little things will just trigger you. Like, oh, that made me think of that scenario, where the outcome was not great or that really upsetting thing that happened at work last week, it just brought that back.

And then you're like, mull over it a bit more and a bit more. And then you start to think about something else. And then, you know, it's a spider's web of thoughts and emotions and stuff. And you're right then when you completely flog yourself, just disappears. 

Rhona: And possibly, I think you, you touched on it with what you said is that, um, yeah, maybe that's when you're finally enough .

I don't know. Maybe that sounds bad, but No, there's something there. 

Phoebe: I think if you. You thrive on achieve achievement. So if you are a high achieving child, which most of us who've become doctors, were, your whole life is about re achievement and reward. Do well in these exams. Reward do well in this.

Reward, do well, do well, do well. What are you doing with your time? You need to be achieving, you need to be doing this. So it's like I have ridden 200 miles. I cannot possibly do anything else to, there's nothing else I can do. I have worked 60 hours this week. I have finished all my shifts. You cannot ask any more of me I'm done.

And it's, yeah, it's that, it's that lightness that you get from that. No one can expect anything more from me. 

Rhona: Yeah. And sadly, I think some of that is also the societal parts of being a woman. 'cause you, we now have these insane expectations of being able to do all of these things. 

Phoebe: I try and ask myself questions.

So I do this work with my. Trainees as well. When we're making decisions and stuff, is this the right decision for the patient? Is this the right decision for you? Is this the right decision for the parent? I've tried to get those kind of questions into my own life, is this activity right?

Is this the right activity for now? Do you know what I mean? Are you physically tired? In which case this activity is not for you? Are you mentally tired? In which case this is the right activity for you because it will refresh your brain and you'll feel better. Are you emotionally broken? In which case is this gonna help you?

Do you know what I mean? How do you feel about this in this moment when you are trying to cram in 200 things and you're not sure if you can fit it in? And what will happen if you don't do it? Like, will you be okay? Yes, you will be okay. Like, will it be the end of the world? No. So let's, why don't we just have an early night tonight?

Rhona: That's a good decision making tool. I think for both ways, to be honest. It's probably good for the times where you don't wanna go out and do something, but you know it'll be good for you. Really. Like it will actually be helpful, but it's also good for the times where you feel like you should, but you probably shouldn't.

Phoebe: People don't 

question themselves enough, it sounds a bit mad, but ask yourself the question. Is this going to do you good? Yes. Then come on, whole let's a hundred percent. And this is questions that we have, like Scott and I have, you know, when I'm saying I wanna do this trip and I dunno how it's gonna fit in and everyone's gonna have to help me out.

And he's like, well what are you gonna get out of it? Is it gonna do good? Are you gonna enjoy it? Is it really important? And I'm like, yes. It's like, then we will make it work. 

Rhona: Yeah. And you need people in your life, I think like that, who will support you for the things that are definitely important to you, but will also say, no, actually I don't think you should do that today.

Even though you might feel a bit guilty about it, you really shouldn't. Yeah. 

Phoebe: And I, I think this is something that I've only achieved in the last 12 months. Like it's only something, this is a recent discovery for me, is this gonna do any good? No. Right. Let's sack it off. And it's a bit like triage, is the world gonna end if you don't, do you know, like picking up your kids from school, is the world gonna end if you don't pick up your child?

Well, yeah, probably because your child going to be really upset. So that is, that's that that has to happen. You have to pick them up from school. And then, you know, sometimes I get home from work and I have to take Sabine to football, but I'm stuck late at work because the patient's really sick or whatever, and she's gonna miss football.

And I feel like this is the end of the world because I'm letting her down. Actually when you have a conversation with her and say, look, I'm sorry I was stuck. I had to do this. I know you missed your football training. She's like, it's okay. I was tired anyway. You knew not everything is catastrophic.

You know? Does this need your immediate attention? Yes. Can it wait till tomorrow? Yes. Write it on a list so you don't forget it, and you'll feel better about it. It's on the list. You don't need to worry about it. Now, does this matter at all? No. Forget about it. Is it important? No. Is it gonna change anything?

No. Then do not waste any more of your energy on it. Forget that. That's great. 

Rhona: It's a great, it seems like I've got you at a great time if this is your last 12 months revelation, but as I've said to everybody, no matter where I've caught people, it's the right time. Because this isn't something that we ever get to the end of.

We'll, rebalancing this and going backwards and forwards and up and down, I think the rest of our lives, 

Phoebe: if you'd asked me this 12 months, if we'd had this conversation 12 months ago, I'd have been really. Miserable and negative about it all. Like the last summer, Scott was away where he, all summer, everything was really chaotic.

We didn't know when he was gonna be home. I couldn't plan to do anything. I hadn't got rugby, I hadn't got the gym. I hadn't really got any good, I'd got good friends, but non, not around the corner, you know? And I made the decision this year that I was not gonna have another summer, like last year. I was not gonna spend my time at home in my own head, worrying about everything, feeling lonely, and generally being a miserable person because I felt like I'd lost my sense of self.

So in order to remedy that, we found new goals, new activities, and those things brought in new friends, new social circles, more stuff to do, more people to meet. And I said yes to stuff that previously I was like, I can't do that because I'm on my own at home and I've got no one to help you with my children.

And I just paid for help or begged for help and. It's made a huge difference. 

Rhona: That's amazing though. I think that's super inspiring. A lot of people, I think, will be really inspired from the fact that in 12 months you went from there to here. That's just, that's brilliant. 

Phoebe: Well, I mean, you know, you, you, you make these, like, you can sit there and blame everyone else and like I, part of me was like, this is everyone else's fault.

My job is really hard. Everything's really hard. I'm finding it really hard. Uh, I'm so miserable. And then I just, I don't know what it was. I think it was going to the gym gave me some self confidence, found a new goal, spend more time with Kelly because she lives up the road from me and she has a son of the same age as me and we like the same things.

And that meant that instead of spending all day when I wasn't at work, at home or just talking to my children, like it's so hard to do a really intense, emotionally difficult shift. Come home, there's no one at home to talk to. Other than a 9-year-old and a three-year-old, neither of whom want to have a chat with you about the difficult decisions you've made in your day.

So there's no one to offload and you just carry all that and it's like, oh, I've made a friend. And then that friend has introduced me to other friends and I'm not like a sad, lonely, old spinster. I'm like out there doing fun stuff. 

Rhona: Oh my goodness. Well, thank you for this. I think that, I think that everything you have said today has really been interesting.

And I think, just to be clear, nobody thought you were a sad little lonely old spinster. 

Phoebe: I 

Rhona: think 

Phoebe: yourself, if you'd have had this conversation with me last August, you'd been like, she's a very negative Nancy. I'm not sure I'll hang out with her. Stop moaning about your children and your life for your privileged.

Rhona: We all have to have those phases. I don't think it's possible not to. We only have the context of our own lives. You. We should acknowledge our privilege, but we don't have to slam ourselves in the face with all of the difficulties of the world every second of the day. Sometimes we have to just get through our own life first.

Yeah. Um, but yeah, really, this has been really, really interesting and I think your perspectives from doing sporting, being a Mum, and also from being a doctor, give you a really interesting insight into all of it. Um, and I've re I think everybody else will agree, so thank you so much. 

Phoebe: No worries. Thank you.

Rhona: Another totally different episode. It amazes me each time that we record that despite so many of the themes being the same through each person's story, their life experiences and contributions are always so unique. I love how passionate Phoebe is about young people's futures and, definitely feel inspired to do my bit, to make the outdoor world as welcoming and enjoyable as possible for young people, so they want to stay a part of it for their whole lives.

I have a lot of respect for our honest she was and like her approach to pragmatic prioritization. If you also enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave us a review. You can follow us on Instagram at rest days community, or check out the website rest days community.com for all the latest info and to be a part of the community.

See you next time.