Emma Whitaker Transcript

Rhona: Welcome to episode eight of the Rest Days Community podcast. This week we talk to Emma Whitaker. We look at their journey through the downhill mountain bike race scene, how hard it can be balancing risk and reward, whilst not losing the love for something that started out as pure fun. We look at the hard work that goes into building outdoors or sporting communities, why it's so worthwhile, but how planning everyone else's rest day doesn't always leave space for your own rest days.

They share how working creatively in the cycling industry has allowed for a work pattern that can leave space for other parts of life. As someone getting into gravity, mountain biking, I fangirl a bit and get some advice on how to find my place in the mountain bike community. We talk about why this is particularly hard right now due to a big hole in the grassroots mountain biking.

There's a lot of focus on time outside, specifically on a bike being fun, and that there should be space for everyone to enjoy this. I hope you enjoy. 

Hi Emm welcome to the Rest Days podcast. Thank you so much for being here. I'm really excited to dive in and have a chat with you all about everything, rest days. Um, gotta be really mean. And start with asking why do you think I wanted to speak to you about this?

Emm: Uh, probably because work in the industry, had a few jobs. I, a lot of people seem to think, or people that know me seem to think I'm here, there and everywhere or doing a bit of everything. So I dunno. Maybe you heard a bit about that and it's like, how, how is this person doing a bit of this and relaxing and taking rest days, I guess.

Rhona: Yes. I actually would say I hadn't heard too much, I hadn't specifically heard from any people, but I would say, small amount that you put out into the world over the internet. I was like, this person's doing a lot and I think I have seen some of the stuff you've done, like Reyt good.

Um, and also I know that working in the creative industry where you are dependent on work, being quite flexible and being a little bit all over the place can be pretty tough. Hard sometimes to draw lines between your life and your work life.

I also had heard from, from some people that you're a very good bike rider.

Emm: Okay. Yeah, I've just been doing it for a really long time, so I'm more than half my life, so that would make you ok at riding bikes.

Rhona: Yeah. Well, I hope that if I ride my bike from more than half my life one day, I will be a very good bike rider too. tell me then what got you, where did, where did bike riding come from? Where did, where did that all start?

Emm: In between Leeds and Bradford and there's been Yorkshire, there's a lot of moors and everything. And, um, saw people doing it as a kid and always kind of thought, oh, that'd be pretty cool to try. And then I'm very lucky in that I spent a lot of my time in the Alps growing up and some friends of my parents were like, oh yeah, let's just take Emm out.

Let's give it a go. So I first tried it in Chatel, and just fell in love with it out there. So, first started, first riding I ever did was kind of in the Alps, got home, got a bike back home,

Rhona: No way.

Emm: yeah, just a hardtail back home and started riding on the moors and then went back out to the alps for a summer, picked up a bigger bike, did more downhill stuff, started racing after that. And yeah, or just kind of. Tumbled into where I am today and kind of built my, I don't wanna say built my life around it 'cause I didn't, but it's very much a big part of who I am in my life and yeah,

Rhona: You must have really loved it. 'cause I feel like if I had first ridden a bike in the Alps and then I came back to York shire, it might have been slightly disappointed.

Emm: disappointed but it was also, I think, being a kid as well. I think I was 14. Yeah. Must've been 14 when I first tried it. In the Alps, you, you kind of have that no fear and a very athletic kid and yeah, it was just good. And yeah, it felt, it was just going out, playing on the moors basically.

Rhona: And did you have people to do that with or were you mostly doing that on your own?

Emm: I picked up, a sponsorship for a local shop, then I met some other people to ride with and met some people at races. But obviously

Rhona: I.

Emm: kind of here, there And I had people like my parents friends that I'd ride with out in the alps, which is quite nice. But yeah, kind of here, there and everywhere people knew. So I'd go to races and there'd be people there that I knew, but at home is kind of just myself.

Rhona: So you were pretty motivated then what? Where did that come from? Was that just for pure love of riding a bike?

Emm: I dunno. I think it was just to be outside. Um. I wanted to be, I guess at the time I didn't really think about it, but I just wanted to be outside and I wanted to be in nature and it was just where I grew up the moors were just a really nice place. And I guess it was, when I looked back it was quite relaxing and it was nice to just get out and do something. Um, I wasn't kind of kid to sit at home and do nothing. know, if I was at

home, I'd be building jumps out of rocks and bricks and laying planks of wood on them and stuff like that. And then, yeah, it was just lucky enough that I was five minutes, basically flat pedal and I'd be out on the moors.

So, and we had some trails on there that people had dug, so, Yeah.

Rhona: That's so cool. I think that's kind of what I wished I was brave enough to do when I was a teenager, but I don't think I was good or not. Uh, I don't know if something in my head stopped me from being able to go and do that kind of thing on my own. And I just love that you just went and did it anyway.

You just loved it and you just did it and you, that's just really cool. So you mentioned then you started racing a bit. What changed with your relationship with bikes when you started racing?

Emm: Um, it was just part of it. At that time, racing was still quite localized and quite small and quite, um, oh, what's the word? Not bodged, very grassroots. The right word.

Rhona: Yeah.

Emm: like more races in the uk. We would have races, there'd be the mini downhills all over. There was, regional races and then there were nationals and this was all downhill. Whereas now I think, to think off the top of my head. It's pretty much nationals and there's some minis, so there were so many more races you could enter. They were a lot cheaper than they are now. I think a regional was 50 pounds there'd be one within an hour, an hour and a half of me. So I'd either get a lift there or my parents would take me. And um, yeah, it, at first it was a lot of fun it was really good. And then I kind of got a bit older and was like, oh actually, wanna take this seriously now. And then it kind of ruined it.

Rhona: Dammit. Um, so once you started racing, obviously you started to meet a few people. I, I'm curious, like what was, you know, were there people in, in your category, was there a good solid field there?

Emm: me two Charlottes. Sometimes there'd be someone else, I can't remember her name. Most of the time there'd be three of us. This was when I was a junior. So three, Tahnee is the same age and she did I think one race in the uk. 'cause obviously she grew up in the Alps. So she popped over for a race. I think it was a national champs or something popped over.

Did that, smashed us all, back over. But yeah, at it was three, sometimes four. which was pretty cool back then because in the other categories, for women in the other age groups, there was, yeah, nothing, I mean some, some events. So remember one national champs that. We all, it was elite women and then women, and there were, there was one, there was two junior, one youth, and we didn't get an under 18 category or anything.

We just got bumped in with women. So the youth that won, because she was the only one, she, she still won, she still put down a solid run and beat. Some of the other women never got a national champs jersey or that title. I won the junior, but there weren't enough of us to have a category, so never got the title.

Never got the jersey.

Rhona: Ooh, that's interesting and bad. Really bad. Super unfair.

Emm: yeah, it was, it was tough. And you were racing and constantly putting yourself up against the likes of Becky Skelly, who's older. stronger and a better racer. So of course. you're 16, 17, comparing yourself to these women that have got a better head on them because you're a child and being like, oh, I'm so close to them, but I'm just not quite beating them.

Why is it? And it's like, 'cause you're a child.

Rhona: Wow. And that, and at that age, to have that perspective, like you just wouldn't understand that. You'd just be, yeah. So then you're just of fighting a losing battle.

Emm: yeah. Pretty much. It's a lot better now. They have categories and everything, which is great. And it's really good for the juniors and even youths that are up and coming 'cause it gives them a space to be seen, in racing, which is so good. 'cause yeah, we just didn't have that. If you were good. You were fighting to get any sort of sponsor or any sort of, because social media wasn't, it was coming out when I was a junior. Like it was starting to be a part of who you were as a brand, as a racer, but it wasn't a big thing. Whereas like Laurie for example, he was a few years younger than me and he had full sponsors, was on a factory team by the time he was a junior, all this.

And it was like, why can't I get that when I'm the same level in my category kind

Rhona: Yeah. Well that's really, yeah, that's really interesting. Do you think that that's better now? It is improved.

Emm: I don't think it's quite there yet. Um, I mean the way the UCI split. mean, it's been better, much better racing this year with the Q1 and Q2. That's been incredible. And no protected riders makes a huge difference. Um, but it's, I think it's still chipping away and getting into that, into a factory team so hard. And it's even

harder now less spots and all that, but even to do it as a privateer would just be like, it takes so much and if you don't have any support, you just can't do it.

Rhona: Did you ever race internationally?

Emm: had, I had a spot for Fort William, World Cup as a junior, but my bike got stolen just before it

Rhona: No. Oh my gosh. Oh, that just makes me so mad. That's so

Emm: sign because that was the same year. I had a huge crash and that kind of put a stop to all. So I think it is a bit, I think it's a good thing,

Rhona: okay. And it put a stop to it because you went, do I actually want to do this anymore? Or because physically you were so messed up.

Emm: I was, so the first time that I was 17, no, I was 18 and I ruptured my Spleen. It wasn't that bad the first time. It's still not great, but it wasn't that bad and I was going into uni and I was kind of like, is this worth it?

I've kind of written off a lot of my summer. For this. Um, and I was going out to the alps for a season. I was only out for six weeks with this one. I think I went back to riding a bit sooner, but I was meant to be not riding for six weeks. And then that summer actually, 'cause I was like, well, I can't race so we'll just go out and have fun. Which is, uh, probably one of the best summers I've had because I wasn't always trying to improve or always trying to be better or always trying to up myself. And got back to riding for fun and just messing about on a bike with some friends. I probably learned a lot that summer about my mindset and outlook on racing. An outlook on riding. But yeah. And then I started uni and I actually didn't ride for quite a bit when I started uni. I only had a downhill bike and A BMX, I rode my BMXA bit, I don't really wanna ride much I decided I didn't wanna race that year until my friend twisted my arm.

It was like, oh, come on, come race national champs. And I was like, I don't have a

downhill bike anymore. 

Rhona: where, where did you go to uni?

Okay, so I guess lots of outdoors access, but not downhill racing in that area much.

Emm: No there are trails and stuff and stuff, like there's loads there now, but at the time I didn't know, I didn't have a car. I was carlisle 

Rhona: Hmm.

Emm: It's quite a flat place There wasn't a lot. then I sold my downhill bike, got a trail bike, and then started to ride a bit more with some friends from uni. yeah, I kind of stepped back from it a bit. I did a lot more other stuff. I did a lot more climbing and hiking and stuff like that, but just kind of stepped away from it and after that crash I was a bit like, yeah, I don't really want to put myself in that position again.

Rhona: Yeah. Was that, uh, unhappy exit or were you quite at peace with that decision?

Emm: I think I was quite at peace with it yeah ,

Rhona: That's nice actually. You know, I think a lot of people who, and leave sport because it got, either it got too much or because something bad happened, like a crash. You know, they left with quite a lot of mourning or grieving it.

Emm: It did happen again, the exact same crash and then I kind of left it for even longer. So not many people can say they've ruptured their spleen twice. Um,

Rhona: No, that's impressive.

Emm: I went to national champs after barely riding for a year, like ride at BMX a bit. and it, yeah, a lot worse the second time round.

I was out for three months from anything. Um. After that, I was like, yeah, didn't touch my bike for quite a while.

Rhona: How was that three months? 'cause you, you know, said that, the reason you got into riding is 'cause you're so motivated to be outside all the time. You just wanted to be out doing stuff and then suddenly you got three months where I'm guessing, apart from maybe going for a walk, pretty much everything was off limits.

Emm: yeah, and it was a summer, so it was pretty hard.

I did ride a little bit. I would go out on little road rides and stuff like that, but it was painful. Um, tried to do some climbing or some bouldering, but again, I just couldn't, and there was always this constant, like, if I fall onto my side again, it's just gonna explode. It's not healed yet. So, yeah.

Rhona: Oh my gosh. Did you find anything, you know, was there any silver lining? Was there anything else you found in that time that you actually enjoyed or that was worth putting time into?

Emm: got more into my creative side, so I studied media at uni, so I was already there, but I definitely put a lot more sort of time into it or effort into it because I could still be outside doing that. Learning different, editing skills and things like that because I was interested in it anyway. It was hard to lose a lot of fitness and strength and stuff. I'd pretty much worked on my whole life. I lost a lot and my body changed a lot and I think that's one of the reasons why didn't get back into it. 'cause I was, I would never be. As fit as I or as strong as I was then. so.

Rhona: Was your identity tied to any of that stuff?

 Did you see yourself differently without the fitness or with the, without the body type or,

Emm: I think so yeah, looking back at the time, probably, no, at the time I was probably just a bit grumpy. I was probably really grumpy for that whole time. , But looking back, yeah, definitely.

Rhona: so then after that you practically had to reform who Emm was. Who are you now after that?

Emm: took a a few years, 

Rhona: but you have ended up back in riding after all of those things, so you must have liked it quite a lot.

Emm: Yeah did get back into it, so I can't remember when I got back into it or how, but I think it was when I'd finished uni and 

got 

a full-time job anwas back ridingng. The plan at the time was to buy a van, go traveling, ride my bike

Try and work freelance if I needed to and things like this, which I did.

And that definitely lit that fire inside me again. And it lit it for a different kind of riding as well. And this was when Enduro was coming out as a thing and it was like, well, it's already the riding that we all do, but it now become a thing. so it was like, oh, this new kind of riding. And then it was, oh no, this is just the riding we've been doing since we were kids. And doing that in new places, big mountains really exciting. And being able to find new trails and plot route and get out the bike parks and hike a bike a bit and do some scary ridge lines and stuff like that. Definitely, definitely re-lit something in me. But then after doing that for about 18 months, I think it was coming back to the UK to no ridges. Oh, there's, there's a few, but very little. It's a bit like, oh, and COVID was a bit like, uh, the riding here is not the same. Almost like you were saying when I was a kid starting in the alps, riding on the moors, I didn't have that connection. But then that time I did.

Rhona: What do you think? Obviously the scenery is better in bigger mountains and it's, you know, and it is, is different. The weather is also often better in, in Europe and things like that. But what, what else about the riding? Is it that you really enjoy the trails being harder or them being more exposed?

Like what is it that gave you that extra buzz?

Emm: I don't think it is anything to do with how techy the trails are or anything, or how hard they are. I think it's getting how you get there the, when you are in massive mountains and I'm talking you've got the Matterhorn on looming over you and you are there just riding your bike, just feeling tiny is pretty special.

Nothing compares to that feeling. Around Morzine and stuff, that's where loads of people have gone riding. You still feel pretty small, but that times by 10. When you're underneath massive, massive mountains, and you are like, oh my God, I got myself here. Maybe with a lift, but you still got yourself there and you are then like, I'm about to descend down to that valley that looks like it is a kid has built it out of Lego. It is tiny and I'm about to descend that whole way and it's gonna take me hours to get there. I think it was that just the idea of being so isolated and you kind of have to adapt your riding a bit. You can't go all out. You can't go full throttle. 'cause you're like, I can't fall off here. can't injure myself here.

Almost be a bit more sensible about your riding. And then like you said, like the techyness of the trails. They're more natural. There's rocks that move with you, but then also at the same time, if it's not that techy. Just being there in that environment is, yeah. Nothing beats it.

Rhona: I mean, that just sounds amazing. And now I just really wanna go to the mountains. But yeah, it's interesting 'cause obviously the bike riding is definitely a part of it. It's your medium of choice in the outdoors, isn't it? But it is. It's the outdoors that's doing it for you really. 'cause it's not the same.

You're not getting the same from it when you don't have that surrounding you.

Emm: when I got really into my climbing, while I was taking a break from riding, did a lot of climbing in the lakes and I got that exact same feeling and I think

Rhona: Mm-hmm.

Emm: me understand what kind I enjoy the most, because

Rhona: Mm-hmm.

Emm: kind of thing. You know, if you're I dunno how much you know about climbing, but if you're doing a six, seven pitch climb, gonna be on that crag all day with one other person. Just by youselves

Rhona: That's not my cup of tea.

Emm: It is the same kind of isolated, adventurous feeling of nothing can go wrong. So you really have to think about what you're doing

And also enjoy being there. And then it's a total different feeling when you get to like you top out of the big climb like that.

'cause I remember some of them, I just have to sit there in silence for five minutes. ' While the adrenaline was just kind of the adrenaline from doing that for hours was just escaping your body

Rhona: Wow. That sounds exhausting, but that does sound really cool. Um, and mentally that must just, you know, be so absorbing you can't think about whatever silly little problems are going on in your life.

Emm: No you can't. I think that's why I like mountain biking the most It's the only place where I get to the bottom of a trail and I'm like, I have no idea what I just thought about 

for however long that descent was. Like, it's the only

time only time 

and I'm sure so many people can relate to that. But anything else I do, any other sport, my mind will start wondering, or something will start happening or I'll be thinking about something else. But riding a bike, as you get to the bottom of the descent, it's like, no idea what I thought about. I don't really know how I got to the bottom, but here I am.

Rhona: I can't remember it, but it was great.

Emm: Yeah. That switch off is,

Rhona: I love that. I think that is exactly It is, yeah. And it depends. I think we all have different activities that will do that for us maybe, but um, yeah. I'm with you one where my brain is really engaged while I'm doing it. It's the best because I can't think. It's so nice.

Emm: It's, great. I do love it. My bikes are right in front of me. I'm staring at them.

Rhona: You're like telling this love story to them as you look at them. Um, okay, so you came back from this amazing van trip and then you said, was that about when COVID hit?

Emm: came back and came back when France went into lockdown and then UK followed a few weeks later. Uh, I dunno, it was a bit of a blur. Didn't really do anything in the kind of lockdown but as soon as the borders kind of lifted and could travel again, I went straight back out to France for the summer because I didn't have a job. So, and I was able to go out there for another summer. I was actually meant to move to New Zealand, um, after that summer. Um, but 'cause of COVID I couldnt ,

That kind of fell through. Um, so I had to get a proper job and yeah, had to live in the uk, which was something I really didn't want to do. But I kind of had to, 'cause I had no other option.

Rhona: Yeah. So until this point, you've been funding this by doing little bits of bobs or freelance stuff.

Emm: I'd had a couple of full time jobs 

Rhona: Okay.

Emm: the outdoor industry or in um, but was also doing the odd bit of freelance work here and there I was lucky enough after to be able to live with my parents. so was able to put away quite a bit of money, 

Rhona: So are you somebody who doesn't, you don't necess like stress too much about where the next thing is. You just sort of are like, right, there's enough in the bank account, now I'm off to Europe, gonna ride my bike.

Emm: Yeah. I do. I think life's too short to, and like, I know this comes from a very privileged place to be able to say all this. For me, life's too short to be like, I need to live in one place and do all this, and do all that. And I'm very lucky I've got a partner that thinks the exact same as me.

I think that's quite hard to find,

.

In that at the moment. We live in Bristol we're happy renting, we're happy doing our thing, but we know we don't wanna live here forever. We'll live here until we get bored of it. And then we'll move, move on somewhere else.

Rhona: that's a cool attitude. I like that. I'm not like that though. That would make me way too stressed. But that's okay. We can be different.

Emm: it's, I can understand why people find it stressful, but we're both really happy here and we both love Bristol and we can see ourselves here for quite a few years, but we don't feel the need to tie ourselves down to one place or anything,

Rhona: Yeah, that's fair. And that is really cool and you will get to experience a lot more in life because of it, that's for sure. Which is really cool. Um, so then you ended up back in the uk and I'm guessing that's about the time that Reyt good came into the world?

Emm: It kind of happened very quickly. I gravel almost like in enduro Gravel was

Rhona: I.

Emm: A thing I was get on board with this, this, this feels like the mountain biking that I was doing in the alps but UK version. So I got a gravel bike, and that opened up so many doors being like. I'm mountain biking, but on a bike that is not suitable for it. And I'm throwing this bike down trails and it's making it really hard and really sketchy and really fun that I would be bored on, on my mountain bike. Not bored. I'd be a bit like, on my mountain bike. Um, and then Lakes Gravel Gang had been going for a bit, obviously New Forest Off Road Club had been going. My, so my sister lives in the New Forest, so I'd been one of their rides I think at this point. And I was like, oh, there just isn't one in Yorkshire. Um, um, especially in my area, which was near the Dales. So I was like, yeah, I'll just make one. Why not?

Rhona: Yes.

Emm: Which is I think how a lot of people who started these communities have the same thing, like, oh, there isn't one, so I'll just do it.

Rhona: but it does, you know, but a lot, most people have that thought, but then don't do it. So it's really cool that you did.

Emm: Just do it. If it goes wrong or if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. That's fine. It's not the end of the

Rhona: I think as well though, most of the time it mostly does work because the, everybody's thinking the same thing. And actually people really want people to ride with and they want nice people to do stuff with and they want community. So it does work

Emm: Yeah. It the first ride I did, I was expecting like no one. Um, I was really expecting very few people. And then I think we had 15 people on the first ride.

Rhona: on your first ride. Fair play. That's, yeah.

Emm: I was like, oh my God, these people have come here by something I have organized as some mental, and then it just kind of kept going. because it was that weird time where COVID was still a thing, we could do stuff. But I wasn't working in my office, so I was working from home. So I had a bit more time around work. I wasn't commuting. I had more time to put into it. like was able to do a lot more rides and like tons of people come in.

People loved it. It was great. And then started doing workshops, teaching people how to fix bikes. Did a couple of talks, um, got my guiding qualification through New Forest, which is when I first met Claire. They funded me through it, which was great. But yeah, it just kind of snowballed into this thing that got a bit too much for me.

Rhona: What do you mean by that?

Emm: This is when like back in an office or commuting full time life was pretty much back to normal. So I had other things going on and

Rhona: Yeah.

Emm: as well as organising Right? Good. I kind of felt that I wasn't able to put in the same amount of time that I was previously because I just didn't have capacity. but I was just super honest with everyone who had been on ride. So in the WhatsApp group we have, I was just super honest and was like, Hey everyone, this is all becoming a little bit too much of me now. Uh, I'm gonna have to take a step back, this WhatsApp group to organize rides, to do whatever you want.

It's your place as much as it is mine. Um, I might come on some of those rides. I might not. So that happened for a while, and then I got back into organising some rides a few months later. Um, but after that it kind of switched and everyone kind of understood a bit more though it was very much a volunteer community thing, and this thing was done out of my own time.

Rhona: Yeah, because it is interesting that definitely people, everybody has expectations of everybody and when something has been going and they get used to it, they kind of have this, they have this ongoing expectation, but a, most people aren't really willing to step up and maybe. To help you with that. And that's really hard 'cause they expect you to keep doing it and producing it and they want to turn up, but maybe not help with the actual running of it because was it just you running it the whole time?

Did you have anybody else helping you?

Emm: help me out with rides, um, as in like would just help out on the rides and be like an extra set of hands. But yeah, everything else was just me.

Rhona: Yeah, that's, that's so much. I cannot, I cannot imagine doing that. Doing Peak Gravel gang, there was three of us who did the main organizing and then there's like, I think almost 20 leaders or something. So I, I, I have, I cannot imagine doing that on my own. I mean, even the amount I was doing with that many people I felt like was a lot.

Emm: it started off quite small and then it grew quite big and I was just like, yeah, nah, I can't keep up this level at this time.

Rhona: Yeah.

Emm: Like I worked a lot of events as well and 'cause COVID had ended, these were coming back into suddenly my summer was just crammed with events. Trying to get reyt. Good rides in trying to get time for myself. Pretty sure I'd got a puppy at this point as well. 'cause why not?

Rhona: Yeah. Uhhuh

Emm: So it one thing on top of the other and just kind of like, I was like, okay, the one thing I can't or I can change is reyt. Good. And it is gonna have to sit back for a while.

But they still met up and they still went out on rides and still

Rhona: good.

Emm: day, even though I've moved club is like, I've handed over some people, um, essentially, and they're doing an incredible job and they're organizing rides. And uh, they did, the group came down to the Southwest to do a bike packing trip, around Bristol. Um,

Rhona: Oh

Emm: me and my partner joined on that is pretty cool. It's weird. on the rides now. And there's people that I have no idea who they are and they've

joined it recently and I'm just there like,

Rhona: so they don't know who you are.

Emm: they dunno who I am I'm there and then someone will mention it and I'll be like, no. And I'm like, oh, oh my God, this like, you did this. I was like, yeah, but I'm not really a part of it anymore. I just watch from a distance.

Rhona: I understand that completely. 'cause I'm in exactly the same position now with Peak Gravel gang. So yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Um, but well done for realizing it was too much. I think that's really big because there is a pressure and an expectation, like we said, and I think, you know, it's coming quite hard to step away when that, but you, you were able to identify that this was the thing you didn't have to do.

I think, uh, I, that I think I would've found that really hard actually. Uh, yeah. That's an impressive quality in you to be able to do that.

Emm: easy. I think I made it sound easier than it was. Um, and I definitely,

Rhona: always does sound it when you just say it, doesn't it?

Emm: definitely took it past the point. I maybe should have realized sooner that that was the one thing I could change. Um, because

Rhona: Yeah. Okay.

Emm: get rid of a puppy. you can't really change your work that you get paid for.

So it was like, if I want some time for myself, this is the one thing that has to, yeah.

Rhona: Yeah. That's, that's totally fair enough. I think it is, it is really hard. I think it's so cool that there are so many communities popping up everywhere all the time. And the more there are almost, I think the less work it will be for all the people who are running them. Um, but I do think that the people who are do these things are really at, at risk of overdoing it because to start it in the first place, you are a giving person who's interested in getting other people involved in stuff.

And that's, that quality can sink you.

Emm: Yeah. It definitely can. And like you said, you nail on the head right there would say. And the more people that set them up, work it is for everyone and you're gonna work, you're gonna get less numbers because people will have to travel as far to get them. But like who cares?

Like you're still

Rhona: Yeah, but that's actually still, that's definitely better. Yeah. That's way better for everybody. I mean, yeah, people in, I think Peak gravel gang tries to cover two wide, an area probably because it's like trying to, it says the whole of the peak district, and, but most of the people who volunteer live in sort of Sheffield way, which means the more, the rides end up that way and you get people messaging being like, oh, but there hasn't been a ride in the South Peak since this many weeks.

And it's like, yeah, I know, but nobody li, none of our volunteers live there. So make a group there and then we, then it'll be fine.

Emm: thing with Bright Good 'cause it essentially covered Yorkshire, which for those who dunno, Yorkshire is pretty much the width of the uk. Lanre like sandwiched on the end, but we kind of forget about that county. So I was Northwest and takes me about two and a half hours, three hours to get to Scarborough.

So the other side of Yorkshire, it's quicker for me to get to the lake. So like we were having some of our rides, because it was maybe 45 minutes from Kendall, we'd have people from the lakes. So we had a little bit of a crossover with Lakes Gravel gang, which was quite nice 'cause we were close to each other.

But then the people that were based in East Yorkshire were like, oh, you never do a ride over this way. Why don't you do a ride in the North York Moors? And I'm like, because that's like hour drive for me. To get

Rhona: Yeah.

Emm: and do a ride. And free to set one up. I'm not opposed to group

Rhona: Yeah.

Emm: Side of Yorkshire.

It'd be And then the same thing, like Sheffield falls into that. It's like that whole area. It's massive. But we stuck to kind of, West Yorkshire was kind of our key area because it's where lived and some of the other volunteers ended up doing it. And where the people who take it on now live, so now it's much more localized around Leeds and that area, which is nice, but

Rhona: Yeah.

Emm: a big area to had like people traveling from York all the way across and they were like, oh, do one. And I was like, I don't know that area at all.

Rhona: Yeah, that's the other thing as well. When I left the Peak district, I was like, I can leave now because I've thi pretty sure I've ridden every single bridal way and probably footpath, sorry to the footpath people. Um, in the peak district. I cannot, I'm done with it. But like, part of why I had to do that is 'cause everybody wants a ride every everywhere.

So I'm like, well better go out and ride all these different places to find out if I can lead a ride there.

Emm: Which I don't think people realize. Well a lot of the time, like I, I think the Peak districts, I've only ridden it a bit, but I think it's pretty similar in that look at a bridal away and you're like, oh, that could be quite nice. And then you get to it on a gravel bike and it's actually really rough. then you are, if you're

Rhona: Hmm.

Emm: a group there, you've got that added of safety. Even though it's not a guided ride, you are, as the ride leader, you're still kind of thinking about that. I am a definitely, so I'd go and re pre-ride the roots. I'd go and reccy the roots before. Doing a group ride. don't think a lot of people realized to put on one group ride, I'd go and reccy the route, get it all out on social, get it all out on put some flyers out somewhere as well most of the time. And then the group ride would come it would be

Rhona: Yeah,

Emm: pe. I think a lot of people it's just, oh, you meet up, you say hi, you go for a ride, you come home, you're done. Like there's so much that

Rhona: yeah, yeah.

Emm: that

Rhona: There's so much more. I know. Which is, yeah, like I have such a huge appreciation for that 'cause I've done it, but I like, yeah, I think people definitely don't realize, and I think, I think that probably is a lot of why I thought you're a great person to talk to because I think immediately the kind of people doing these groups, putting a little piece of themselves into this, it means that you're probably somebody who, uh, doesn't always get the balance Right.

Emm: never. I don't think I've ever got it right once

Rhona: That's fine. You got time left.

Emm: side of the scales or the other side. I've either got too much time and I get bored and then I go completely flip round the other way. 'cause I've got too much on then.

Rhona: That's funny. How do you end up so too much time? Is that when you like, like Right, I need to get rid of a load of stuff and then you, and then you go, oh, right, what am I supposed to do with this time?

Emm: In that, that space now, from quitting a full-time job and going freelance and I'm now in a space where, I have a lot of time on my hands. So I've taken on a couple of more volunteering roles and I just, I keep

Rhona: Which means that the busy period is coming.

Emm: are you, and I've set up a couple of personal projects and I'm like, okay, this is really good. But you need to give yourself the adequate amount of time for each personal project and not try cram it into a really short amount of space. 'cause you're really excited about it. So I'm, here being like, you need to take time. You need to take time to ride and really, enjoy this quiet. 

Rhona: Yeah. We all kind of plan things in differently. Um, somebody recently was telling me that they do a thing where they. Leave a third of their time free so they, when they're planning their calendar a third of it has to have nothing in it. And that can mean that any, anything can go, go, end up in that.

But a third of it from the beginning has to be free. And that's where they mostly do exercise, see friends, that kind of thing. But, but it means, but they also do like side projects in that time as well because otherwise what they do is they just block up the whole calendar and then there's no time for the side projects.

They're just squeezed in whenever you're sat down. And also there's not really time for the things you properly wanted to do, or you have to cut everything short. You come back from your ride sooner than you wanted to, or you couldn't go out on the muddy day 'cause you wouldn't have time to clean your bike or whatever it is.

And I quite like that idea, but there's no way I could just leave a third by calendar empty.

Emm: Of that sounds really smart and really clever, but I, I, yeah, I'm too last minute and put things in last minute and spontaneous and right now I've got the time of, oh my god, it's sunny for three hours. I'm just gonna go out and everything else gets moved outta the way. That's,

Rhona: Yeah.

Emm: of,

Rhona: You like to be able to move it around? Yeah.

Emm: that. Like, weekend the weather's really good. Should we go away in the van? Yeah, let's just go away in the van kind of

Rhona: Yeah. That's cool. I'm trying to become more like that, I think. 'cause I've come through medical training where everything is decided for me. My shifts are decided. My rota decided, when I have my holidays is decided. So it's I'm trying to now be like, oh, you can have some control. You can move things around, you can do.

So I'm trying to do that mindset more rather than just have, Tuesday evening is when you're free. You can run. Then it doesn't matter if it's raining. That's the only time you've been given for that.

Emm: Um, luckily enough, like every full-time job I've had has been, um, fairly flexible in the way that I'm in charge of my own calendar. Which is great. From the

out of uni, I was calendar and I was traveling a lot for that job as well. So I was able to be like, I'm gonna be in Inverness for the next few days and it's gonna be really good weather.

I'm gonna book all my appointments in. So they finish at four, then I'm gonna go for a ride and I'm gonna go here, and then I'll just work a bit get all my admin done when I'm at the hotel in the evening.

Rhona: Yeah. That is, that is just the way to do it. Yeah, a hundred percent. I actually, I just think it would be nicer if every, if employers, if the world was a bit more understanding of that. I, I think that I'm more productive if I can work my life like that rather than if.

Emm: Yeah. If I can start work at 12 o'clock, get something done in the morning. Take the dogs out, go for a ride, whatever. Go to the gym, go for a climb, whatever it is, my day 12 o'clock, take a break when most people are finishing and then carry on working into the evening.

I'm much more productive, like I get, so much more done. And I think, yeah, it's weird, but that is my perfect day.

Rhona: Yeah. But the thing is, you know that and, I feel, you know, we should just all be tr, I mean, I know there are some adults who can't be trusted, but most adults we should just be trusted, you know, that we can do it. I mean, in fairness, my work now has a still set hours because, um. You know, GP surgeries aren't open at nighttime, but that, so I am accepting of that somewhat, but I've been super lucky I to find a couple of people who wanted to work with in a similar way.

And we don't ever have set days, we all just do whatever days and we just mix it around. So it's always staffed. It might not be, we do the same days even every week. In the year we've worked the same amount. Um, but we just like, so it's kind of for a job where you have to be in, in the hours.

It's as flexible as it can be and it's already just made such a big difference to my life.

Emm: so it's, yeah, there's, I, there's something about that flexibility that is just makes huge difference. I think it makes you feel like you have more time in the day as well when you are not being told you have to be in an office to a half, five when you're being told it can be like. Especially now, I'm choosing when I work and I can go to the gym and then I can go do this and then I can go do this. As long as I get that work done, at some point still getting the work done and the client is still getting whatever it is I'm doing for them.

Rhona: Yeah. And it does, it doesn't matter as long as Yeah, it's, it's produced. Yeah. I love that. I think that's great. I know that everybody doesn't have that option though, so I'm sorry to anybody listening who doesn't. Um, so I wanted to ask you actually about, I want to start mountain biking racing.

Uh, I'm trying to start doing some enduros , and I'm trying to put my money where my mouth is and go and not be scared and feel like I belong there, but it's very difficult to do that. I've got any advice.

Emm: the worst person to ask 'cause I haven't been to a race in so long.

Rhona: Hmm.

Emm: if an enduro a race now, which I, I keep toying with the idea, um, get a group of mates that you normally ride with two or three of them and go do it with them and just treat it as normal day. Just treat it as a day you're going out riding, but you'll be timed between some of it, the best races I ever did were when I was super relaxed and everybody who's competed will tell you that the best results they've ever had are when they're, they've been relaxed and they've been really comfortable at the race and they've been able to really get into it. yeah, just don't, so easy to say. But don't put pressure on yourself. get a couple of mates, go out there, pretend you are Chad on the trails. You belong there 

Rhona: I think the mates is a good 'cause. I definitely think I will feel, you know, feel as small like in that, um, I went to a race not very long ago and there was I think, uh, eight women, maybe 10. I'm not exactly sure the exact number, but there was a few hundred men and I, it was like then the worst ratios I'd experienced.

And it was quite hard as well. And, and the, the, the fact that it was a little bit harder and I think the fact that I just couldn't see anybody else who was, I felt would be similar to me, really just got in my head so much.

I, I think that that's, I dunno how we fix that.

Emm: racing, like bring it back. Like

Rhona: Yeah.

Emm: few races I that had like, yeah, they were just people that were trying it for the first time and that doesn't exist. If you want to get into downhill racing now, it's straight into a national, pretty much. is terrifying.

Rhona: This was like a Scottish endur series. So that's that level. And there we are actually really lucky. Up here in the north of Scotland, there is a, a grassroots series, which is lovely, and they're smashing it. They have all the, the nods, you know, like they have a wo a women's start window and they have more women's toilets and they, they've thought about it like they're, they're even just to the colors and the way that the language they use.

Emm: Up like I can't remember what it was called, but it's other Scottish downhill series or whatever it was called. They were such good races, like

Rhona: mm.

Emm: always get pull in, good numbers, good ratios. And some of my friends that I've still chat to now met through them and they were grassroots but they weren't, 'cause they were the Scottish series, but they felt grassrootsy. Um, but

It's so a race and I'm sure people that have done it will tell you how hard it is. When I was younger, we'd have mates races. On the moors, and it would literally be one person at

Rhona: Mm-hmm.

Emm: with the walkie-talkie, just doing timed runs just between each other. And they'd maybe pull in 20, 30 people, on the local trails and it wouldn't be anything major.

Rhona: Yeah. I wonder why, I wonder if it's because that probably did take an insane amount of effort on all the people who were organizing grassroots events on their part. And maybe they, they burnt out and they, it seems more now events have to make money, a lot of the events that do well in the mountain biking are the ones that are, they're a business rather than a for the sport kind of, which is unusual 'cause I think a lot of other sports that I have been a part of, there's still, there's.

So many voluntary things at this level, but I don't know why I don't, I'm not really seeing that at all in mountain biking Now, maybe all the people transitioned to gravel and they're all running gravel communities now.

Emm: I could talk about this for hours and speculate why it is. And I think when you look at other sports, running is such a good example now 'cause there's so many running clubs that are out there and you've got park runs and things like this. It's such an accessible sport in that sense. And when it comes to mountain biking, got that same community feel, but it just doesn't have that same of aspect. And I think it's just, it all comes down to funding from the governing bodies. Like it's just not there. And it's,

Rhona: Yeah.

Emm: Gonna the sports eventually and it's gonna make our sports so, inaccessible.

And if you it's one of the personal projects I've got going on at the moment is hoping to kind of help. bridge this gap a little bit. Um, I won't go into it too much, but if we gave these kids that a really good mountain, biking and they're really, really good, but they don't have the money, they don't have, their parents weren't into it, so they don't have that knowledge of how it works or how the industry works or anything like that.

They're not tech savvy. They're not marketing savvy because they're a child. They don't have to be, but they're really good at a bike. They're not gonna into racing, they're not gonna be able to get their foot in the door. If there's some sort of grassrootsy funding or sponsorship or scholarship or whatever you wanna call it, where

Rhona: Mm.

Emm: and brands get on board kids can like submit themselves and they get opportunity. To race, and then all of a sudden, it opens doors to so many more people. And then hopefully more grassroots start coming up and more people see the importance of pushing sports from the bottom. Because mountain biking isn't pushed from the bottom. It's pushed from the top and trickle down, which is wrong, it should be from the bottom and up.

Rhona: That is it. That is exactly it. Exactly. Yeah. I, I see that so much in mountain biking that you're right. So much coming. Everybody's only focused on, even at the top, that's a problem. All the overhaul that's happened with, um. You know, Warner Brothers buying over the, the UCI World Cups and then changing the formats and everything. Enduro j you know, people say we're supposed to just be this adventure series, kind of, you traveled the world and you went to different places and you rode your bike and it was massive days out and it was hard, but it wasn't like this, that same level of down to the detail racing.

And now they, but they wanna turn it into that and just make it this elite top two, top, top, top level thing and take, uh, yeah. even at the top, they're doing that.

Emm: It's crazy and it's so weird 'cause right now, especially downhill, we are in this incredible, um, shift of riders of kids, Jackson and Gracie Hem Street and stuff. These are kids that have grown up riding. Their skill level is just so much higher than any other riders. We're just gonna have the same riders winning probably for the next five years and all the views and everything will get slowly start to plummet or even to the point, I don't wanna watch season where all the riders are pushing themselves to the point where I may witness a death.

Rhona: yeah. Well, that's, it is getting, Yeah.

Emm: there needs to be a change in the grassroots so that we have that input of riders. So the next five years aren't the same. And that the new riders coming in have come from interesting backgrounds or places and they add something different to the sport. '

Rhona: I think you're probably right. Even if we take out getting people to that top level, I think at the moment in mountain biking, if you're not a kid getting into it, it's, it's really hard as an, as a person in their thirties trying to get into it, it's really hard.

There's just nothing in between going, riding on trails with no pressure, with friends to riding really hard stuff in a race.

I think in everything else, you know, you don't just go and run a marathon and running, you'll run a 5K and a 10 k and you might run a half marathon even, and then you'll go and run a marathon.

Emm: almost like we need a park run for mountain biking.

Rhona: Yeah,

Emm: would be sick.

Rhona: yeah,

Emm: centers are, uh, Tweed Valley should do this, on a Sunday you pay fiver, you go pick up your timer and five trails on the hill are timed and there's just a massive time sheet of everyone on that

Rhona: yeah,

Emm: gets emailed out to

Rhona: They did a, a cycle type park run, but it wasn't from mountain biking, I think in gravel foyle. I think maybe it was one of Kerry Mcphees projects.

Um, the, and that looked really, really cool and 'cause I think through all types of cycling, to be honest, there isn't much at this level.

Emm: I think getting there is the hardest part, and then once you do it, you'll be like, oh, that wasn't that bad. But

Rhona: Yeah.

Emm: sucks that there's no grassroots Racing anymore?

Rhona: It's definitely a shame. Um, but yeah, I thought you're, you're a good wise person to ask about why this is, you know, why in mountain biking this seems to be more of an issue. Um, do, don't you have a cool film project coming out soon or something?

Emm: kind of gone on the back burner. Um, I just, because I wasn't getting any funding for it and I wanted it, I

It, I wanted to do it it was just a project about, like and exploring how the world, 'cause the world is messed up at the moment and how sort of being non-binary is seen and how I really think our sport cycling in general could be a turning point. In gender, especially with all the community groups we've got going that are so inclusive. And I, again, I could talk hours on this, especially with how cycling UK have delivered things at the moment. Our sport is so community based and inclusive and a lot of time doesnt matter what gender you are doesn't matter at all. You just get out and ride and you forget about all that. And I wanted to kind of showcase that and how have been such a core part of that, not just for me but for other people. And also kind of educate people about breaking down these binaries and how it doesn't actually matter how someone presents because at the end of the day, riding bikes is something that you learn as a kid and we're just having fun.

We're playing essentially like it's not that big a deal how someone presents. are just riding bikes.

Rhona: I love that. I really hope that you get the funding and get the time to, to make that project come to life, because I think that'll be absolutely amazing and I think. You are exactly right for the, for the vast majority of us who aren't going to be riding world cups, we are just messing around on our bikes.

So, and when we're messing around on our bikes, we can all just be doing it together. Really does not matter what, you know, it doesn't, it just doesn't matter what is beneath your clothes and what the way you wanna present yourself to the world. 'cause we're all just having a great time. It just doesn't matter.

Emm: At the end of the day, if you showed someone a picture of a bunch of 10, 11 year olds playing in the woods bikes and a picture of 30 year olds playing in the woods in bikes, there is no difference. We are doing the exact

Rhona: Yeah. Yeah.

Emm: But for some the adults are pickier about who they're doing it with and how they see people and how they see themselves and identity and everything like this.

But at the end of the day, we're doing the exact same thing as we were as we were kids, and we're getting more enjoyment out of it. So why are we adding these extra layers? I could, I could honestly talk about this for hours terms of bikes and technology and everything else that goes onto it.

But at the end of the day, we are just riding bikes and having fun in the woods. else should matter.

Rhona: Yeah, I totally agree with that. Um, and I love, yeah, I love, that's where we've come to near the end. Um, I have one final question then. So what is your perfect rest day?

Emm: Woken up to no alarm, but that's impossible when you've got dogs. 'cause you wake up to a dog in your face, um, which is still quite nice. So wake up to that. them out for a nice walk. Um, probably a few hours with them. Get home, eat some good breakfast, eat a very big breakfast.

And then it's not very resting. Probably go out for quite a, a big ride. Um, plan on where or how far. Um, but yeah, probably on a big ride with my partner. And then come back again, eat a load of food, and then probably go to the pub with the dogs.

Rhona: a good day.

Emm: Yeah. what a

Rhona: That sounds perfect. No, but it is because I bet that when at the end of that, you just feel at peace.

Emm: And it's been a

Rhona: That's, that's, and that's what you know, because some people, they're on the move all the time. They're super busy. They're physically active all the time. They, their rest day might be that they sit down, but for most of us who actually probably spend most of the day sat down doing work and doing other boring tasks, then it's quite restful to go out and move your body.

Emm: that isn't like I only have this amount of time to do it. It's a,

Rhona: Yes. Exactly. Not just, oh, I have to squeeze it into this little window. Yeah, I love that.

Emm: have been be fine for five hours by themselves. Let's just go.

Rhona: Yeah, sounds perfect. And on that note, I will, I will leave you em. Thank you so much for your time and thank you for all of your wise, wise words. was really fantastic.

Emm: thank you yeah, I could talk for hours on a lot of these subjects.

Rhona: So could I.

The end of another episode, another unique story and perspective. The love Emm has for all varieties of cycling really came through. Although this relationship has changed over the years with times of more and less rest, it is clear Emm still loves bikes and wants to share that joy with others. I really enjoyed hearing their perspective on why we need cycling communities and grassroots events.

I'll look forward to seeing em's, future creative projects out in the world, and we'll be channeling the wisdom in this episode. Next time I go to a mountain bike event. If you want to hear all things rest days, community, check out our Instagram at rest days, community or website rest days, community.com.

See you next week.