Jess Fawcett Transcript
Jess words
Rhona:
Jess, welcome to rest day's podcast. Thank you so much for agreeing to do this. We have been talking about this for a long time because we are friends in our normal life and I've been rambling away to you about it. I'm really excited to hear some of the stories you have to share.
I think we should just dive right in. Back in your childhood when you were first starting to get into running and doing things at school. Tell us your story.
Jess:
Okay. Hello. What an introduction. Thank you for having me. I think the first sort of experience I had of feeling the pressure to succeed was through schooling. I ended up at private school for my secondary education, which was sort of not the plan for our family really. But through a strange series of events and like assisted places and various things, myself and my three older sisters ended up at the same private school. I was there essentially on the understanding that as long as I did absolutely nothing wrong and I worked hard, I would be able to stay there.
But as soon as I put a foot wrong, I'd be gone. That was kind of the message I got given, when I got my place at the school. So I suspect after having various bits of therapy and stuff in my more recent life, that that's probably where I developed a sort of need to do well and achieve standards and get an A at everything and sort of anything below a good grade or a fast time or wherever you want to sort of apply these boundaries that anything below the best was not good enough. And obviously that sort of time of your life when, what are you about 11 when you start is I think you form quite a lot of your traits there. It definitely didn't come from my sort of family setup.
I'm really lucky I have these three sisters and we're all fairly close in age, but we're not competitive with each other at all. So it didn't come from there. So yes. But slightly before secondary school age when I was about 10 is when I started running. My family were, we, we enjoyed a Sunday walk, but other than that we weren't a particularly outdoorsy family.
I got into running through a friend at my junior school whose mother was a coach at the local running club, and she took a small group of us for a probably one km run or something at the allotments. And I loved it. And then she said, you know, there's cross country that you can do. So then that same little group of us went to this cross country.
I remember beforehand one of the little boys, William was like, I think Jess is gonna be the worst of everyone. He's like, Marissa's gonna do really well and Jess is not gonna do well. And so I think that lit a little fire in my belly. And I did this race and there was 250 kids and I came 13th after having lost a shoe and run back for it.
And they give you a little raffle ticket at the end with your number on. I've still got that. And it has 13 in it. And I, I, I remember being oh, quite good at this. And that was like my intro to running and it was very, child friendly, I would say. My mum and dad really supported me, but they didn't push me.
Rhona:
So that's quite wholesome actually
Jess:
It was really, it was really nice. And all the other kids that went to that one race never did it again. I loved it.
Rhona:
Isn't it amazing that these little things, your friend's mom, if she'd never done that, made that effort taken, you guys suggested you, do you, your whole life trajectory might have been different.
Jess:
It's mad, isn't it? It's wild. It's wild. I have an uncle who did a lot of running and you know, he's, he was the same age as Seb Coe and in the same sort of schooling. So he used to run cross country with Seb Coe. So there's always been this thing of like, he could have been, you know, that level, but he got pleurisy.
That kind of put a pin in his running for a while, and then as an older adult, he did marathons and he was pretty good. So I think I've always sort of thought my ability or, or whatever comes from the same sort of genes as my uncle.
Rhona
Well, I never knew that about you actually.
I mean, I knew that you had an uncle who ran. I didn't know that he was, he ran against Seb Coe. Okay. This explains a lot. Now I feel much less bad when I'm huffing and puffing up hill behind you now that, that's made me feel a bit better. Yeah. Okay. Well, there you go that's really interesting. Okay, so let's talk a little bit, I wanna hear more about both of those things, but first I thought we could talk a little bit about school. Your experiences, because I wonder if that has carried all the way into life, this feeling of. I can only be here if I am absolutely working at my hardest.
There's those, this driver of push and pull, you are kind of being, you know, you're not aiming towards something, you're terrified of failure in that situation. Yeah. How has that affected you?
Jess:
Um, a lot. Let's try not to make this a therapy session. So to put a positive spin on it, I think that mindset has made me successful in various things.
I'm quite proud of my ability to push myself. It's something if I'm having a job interview or I don't know, doing something like this, you know, I'd say I'm quite motivated. I'm quite self-motivated. I don't really need someone to tell me to do something. Yeah. I've been told I might have this sort of fear of failure or slash a fixed mindset where it's a more positive way of going about things is having a growth mindset.
So I am definitely pushed by, you know, I don't wanna be the worst, I don't want to be last, but I think the negative bit of that isn't, is that I'm not saying I want to be the best I'm going, I don't wanna be the worst at this. Yeah. Yeah. And there's, there's quite a, a fine line between those two things I think.
I think now I'm older, I've, I've sort of come through it a bit, but there was definitely a time in my life where that was probably negatively pushing me. Um,
Rhona: yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So I want to ask. Have you ever been last at anything?
Jess:
Well, so I think, and I would say this opening, I tend not to like things I'm not good at and I feel embarrassed about that. I think that's not a cool trait.
Rhona:
I actually think that that is very, very common.
Jess:
I don't, I wish I was a person that's like, yeah, I'll give it a go. But if I think that I'll be not successful at it, I'll probably try to avoid it.
Rhona:
Okay. So even your perception would put you off.
Yeah. So it doesn't have to be, you tried something and it wasn't, you weren't very good at it. No. Maybe just not even try it.
Jess:
Possibly, I think. But then I think having, um, a nice supportive group around you or friends, somewhere I feel safe, I, I will try something. Mm. So a great example, Peak Gravel gang. I had one time taken myself off on a gravel bike that I basically bought as a winter bike, thinking if I ever suddenly become brave and have a personality transplant, I can start doing offroad riding.
Um, and then I did one ride, tried to make a route. It was probably a mountain bike route. I had pretty awful time, but I was by myself, so I was like, okay. Nobody saw, nobody saw how bad I was. Um, and then kind of resigned myself to having this bike that I would just ride on the road in winter. And then, you know, you started Peak Gravel gang.
And I, I did try that, but I was pretty out of my comfort zone. And I still am actually some days if I'm in the wrong sort of head space. I just, I, I'm not good at failing, failing at stuff, and because I'm not used to it, because I don't put myself in a position where I might fail. Maybe I haven't had a practice at it now.
Now, however, I don't win loads of stuff. My whole running career, I was a supporting role. I was.
Rhona:
But you were still successful. You've had some really good results.
Jess:
Yeah, and I, I enjoyed my time as well. Um, and I sort of ac accepted my position as the team player. Mm-hmm. Like I can get points in this cross country team and we'll win the nationals. That ticked boxes for me. I'm good at not winning. But I don't think I'm very good at just completely failing something. I don't really know. 'cause I haven't, I don't think I've put myself in a position to find out.
Rhona
It's so interesting as well, because what would be a failure. Somebody has to come last in a race.
So is that failing? Because should that person not have turned up? If they don't turn up, then the next person after them would've been last?
Jess: This is the thing. I would never think that of any, yeah. I go and watch the London Marathon quite often 'cause it's a fun thing to watch.
I stand there for hours and I'll watch the kind of last few people go through and I'm lit, I'm filled with so much admiration. 'cause I look at those people and I think I couldn’t do it, if I didn't have, basically what I feel is a natural ability to run. And I enjoy it. I didn't have to force myself to do that.
I enjoy it. Imagine dragging yourself around a run that you are not enjoying for eight hours or however long it takes. And going over the finish line. I am in floods of, I'm crying usually when I watch. I cry because I'm just, I, that is like a strength of character that I. Don't perceive I have.
Rhona: Oh my gosh, you have that so much. You have no idea.
Jess: I'm not sure, but so I don't look at this. Is that whole thing about how would you treat other people? Treat yourself that same way? Yeah. I would never, I'm actually more impressed by the person that comes in last than the person that comes in first. But I don't apply that same grace to myself.
Rhona:
Oh, it's so interesting. Yeah. Well, you mentioned that the peak gravel gang, and sometimes you feel outta your comfort. So there, to me, the point of the peak gravel gang is you can't fail.
Or, that's part of the, the beauty of it. I know because of all the people who've come and told me that you are a very good, I mean, I know 'cause I've seen you ride, but I know that people, other people also think this as well as me, that you're a very good rider and you're especially have been incredibly fit. And that also you look really cool doing it. Everybody thinks you look the part . So you, even though from the outside, everybody thinks that, you still have times when you're on the, that ride and you're getting the buzzword.
Imposter syndrome.
Jess:
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I'm sort of like, cringing inside I suppose is the way, and it's definitely not , Peak Gravel gang is the most joyous, most friendly, most lovely group, but this is completely a self-imposed kind of, oh no. How embarrassing. I put my foot down or like I didn't get up that hill.
Rhona
to be fair, I think, I mean, I can ride really well technically. Yeah. And I get that, you know.
Jess:
Yeah. I think we all get it. I also think it's hormonal. Do you know? I'm definitely some month, some weeks in the month, I'm just like, ah, everything is like, you know, my anxiety levels definitely seems to change.
Rhona:
I really think, my belief is that we all need community in some way or another.
Jess:
A hundred percent.
Rhona:
And that's really healthy for us. The community in peak gravel gang, I wanted people of every ability to find something they needed from it. So if people are not doing much sport and they're spending loads of time working, or they've got loads of other things going on in their life, they're caring for people's stressful stuff, they can come and this can be their escape.
It's, and we say, you, you, you know, give yourself this. It's great for you. Have a break. Yeah. Come. But I also really love that you've summed up this other aspect, which I think me, you and Hetty who all run Gravel Gang have all benefited from, which is that you can be really driven, have done proper training and really, you know, you're somebody who really pushes yourself, but there can also be this safe space where you don't need to do that and you don't need to be that person.
You don't need to be good. It's good I think for everybody to have something like that. Yeah. Actually. And I wonder how that chain, you know, before Peak Gang, you basically had never had something like that. Is that what you're saying?
Jess
Every sporting environment I put myself in was one where I wanted to compete and Excel.
You know, running is very, you are on leaderboards. Do you know, did you have Power of 10? Do you remember it? So you're literally ranked. And I would look at my ranking and I had times I was trying to hit and, you are constantly graded.
And then I, when I got into cycling, I then put myself in that position again. I did time trialing and, tried to race and various things. So it's constantly being, you are kind of good or not good. And Peak Gravel Gang is not that. The times I feel any sort of anxieties when I, 'cause we are leaders and my favourite role I often is bringing up the rear. And I love that. It's when I feel, if I'm leading, that's when I get imposter syndrome basically. And I, yeah. I have this notion in my mind that I'm not setting a good example. Which is ridiculous because actually the best example is example. I can get off and walk. I know when, and that's fine.
Rhona:
When we first met, I asked you to be a leader because you have lots of on the bike experience and you have done group riding. I knew you had the skillset and I wanted you to be a leader because I knew you would probably get off the bike sometimes. Yeah. And I wanted to set that example.
Yeah. So you are doing your job perfectly. You're not failing. You couldn't have done it better. In fact, that's what I wanted.
Jess:
Oh my gosh. Thank you. Did I get an A
Rhona
Sorry if I put you through some emotional stress by doing that?
Jess:
growth is good.
Rhona:
Also just to say, um, anybody who doesn't know what Power of 10 is basically like a national database where your times from track races, running races go on 5K, pbs, that kind of thing.
And you can compare yourself to different people. It's like pre strava kind of before that, before there was segments and things. Um, it's, it's pretty harsh especially 'cause I think the biggest market for it is teenagers probably. Which is I think quite difficult.
Jess:
And it has your whole history.
It's amazing. Yeah. It's just got everything. So if you are a certain mindset, it's, I can imagine, I think becoming quite obsessed with it. , If you are that way inclined. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm sure.
But I think a lot of these sports where we're chasing a time, I think they're very easily to become obsessive.
Rhona:
But it's dangerous because there's so many uncontrollables that affect them. And that's when people become more obsessive with trying to control the controllables. So then they become more obsessive with the training, the eating, the behaviours around it because, then there'll be a day where they had a headwind and they didn't run well and instead of saying, well it's 'cause of the headwind, they'll go be like, I have to train harder.
Jess:
Yeah. I was slow. And that's, yeah, that's, I think that was a thing, um, I enjoyed about cycling is the conditions are taken into account.
Yeah. I think definitely that's, I mean, definitely something like time trial. Yeah. I think everybody is just super aware of that, aren't they? Yeah.
Whereas running, it just felt like. You just had to be fast. Mm-hmm. Didn't matter what the day threw at you. Especially cross country
Rhona:
I think is kind of like that. It's very brutal. It's like snow on the ground, doesn't matter. Get your vest on, get your tiny shorts on and enough you go out. That's that.
Jess:
I literally used to run in basically a bikini.
Rhona:
Yeah, exactly. Around a snowy field. Yeah.
Jess:
But I'd have armours on. It was wild.
Rhona:
That is a look, isn't it? The gap between your running vest and your arm warmer. Yeah. Where your shoulders bare skin sticking out.
Jess:
Yeah. Wild. What were we doing?
Rhona:
Yeah, it was quite funny. But if that's the thing to fit in, you wanna do it, doesn't it?
Jess:
That's it. That's what the fast girls were doing, so. So you have to do it. Yeah.
Rhona
I mean, we do these things as well. You see people on the tv, if they've done their hair a certain way, they've got this earrings in, that kind of thing. I might run faster if I do it like that.
Jess:
My friend always calls, you know, the running pants. She calls them pavy pants. 'cause the first time she saw someone running them was Joe Pavy and she, so now she's like, did you wear Pavy pants? I was never brave enough for the pants. No. Just short shorts.
Rhona:
I think there's too much like maintenance. Too much for that.
Yeah. Okay. So we talked about, running from fear of failure. Yeah. But then you also talked about this growth mindset. Mm-hmm. Talk, talk to me about what that is as an alternative outlook.
Jess:
So people with a growth mindset seem to be able to maybe not do so well at something and just learn from it and go, what?
Well, that didn't go so well, so I'll just try again next time. Or, what did I learn from that situation? And then the fixed mindset is just, that was awful. I never want to feel that feeling again. How do I avoid, avoid it? Mm. And so rather than chasing being better. You're just running away from being bad.
Rhona:
I think it's quite a sign when you can't cope with the bad days. That's such a sign, you know, I've been in this position myself. It's the runners who you see who cry at the end of the race. Yeah. Or, their mood is so badly affected, their life is affected so much by a bad result.
And it's not, I don't, I think from the outside somebody maybe didn't understand that. Might think those people are being bad losers. I don't think they're being bad losers. It's they, I think they're hammering themselves. Giving themselves a really hard time. And I think that's the first sign I think that, that they don't have that growth mindset.
Because they're not going, this is just a day on the journey. Yeah. This is, this was a learning. What can I take from it? They just immediately go. You're a massive failure. Why? How did you screw this up again?
Jess:
Yeah. Like it's the end of the world. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it is strange though because I think I was protected from it a little bit because I was in this situation where I was in a really good team of runners, so I was able to have this sort of collective success because there was a few years where we would turn up and if we were all fit and healthy, we would win.
It was a very fun time to be a runner. So I think, although sometimes I wouldn't hit my personal goal, we'd win a medal. Yeah. And, and so then I was like, okay, I didn't do that well, but I did well enough to support my team to do well. Um, so I think that sort of cocooned me from the worst of my own internal kind of monologue.
I was trying to think. 'cause I, I think I just never wanted to let the team down then. Mm-hmm. So then that's where I would push myself and push myself and push myself because I wasn't trying to win for me. I just didn't wanna be the one that meant the team didn't win.
Rhona:
So again you didn't want to be the problem.
Jess:
Um, so I'd be running, I dunno, when I was a bit ill or when I had a bit of a niggle and I really should have stopped, but I, I didn't want to be the one that let, the side down.
Rhona:
I think you have to do that a few times at least , to learn. I'm not sure you can ever just be told, don't do it. And just not do it. If you really care about something to the level that you have to care to get good results at a high level. I don't think you can just be told No, no. And then just to, just listen. Especially not as a teenager.
Jess:
No way. No. And it was my whole personality. Mm-hmm. I went to school, did my schoolwork because I had to, but being a runner and being good at running was my like identifier.
Rhona:
which is another big problem I think. I mean, it's, it's, it's good 'cause you're part of something, you really feel like you belong and that's a really important thing for human beings. But also if you are injured and you can't go running, who are you? Yeah.
Jess:
And I really struggled with that when I was younger.
I've learnt now, like I'm happy I can sort of look back on it because I'm different and I've learnt. To get past that, but, um, it took a long time. I'm 35 now, I reckon probably really my, when I hit 30. Maybe I finally learned that my sort of success doing physical activity doesn't define who I am, but that's a long time.
No, I started running when I was 10, so it took me 20 years to like learn a healthy mindset.
Rhona:
Yeah. I think I only learned that I wasn't completely defined by it because it was taken away for a period of time and I had, and I didn't lose all my friends and I still, still, people wanted to talk to me and I was like, oh, there is value to me other than just doing sport.
But it is very interesting, isn't it? That's really difficult. my two ideas about how we help people with that is that we encourage people to do a more diverse range of things when they're younger. Mm-hmm. Because specialising early might not actually necessarily be a good thing.
I mean, there's lots of people who believe that specialising early is a road to burnout. Yeah. So actually, you know, maybe you do, you are a runner, but you also do some tennis on the side. You know, and you play a musical instrument or something. Yeah. Which all three of those I know are things that are only really open to people who are very privileged.
I've not given the best examples. Um, but there is a way to do a few things. To keep yourself so that you're not only identifying as this one thing. Yeah. I think because the thing is, you know, 99% of us, more than 99, you know, most of us are not going to the Olympics.
Jess:
So, sadly so.
Rhona:
So. You know, we can protect the mental and physical health of these young people by helping them diversify. And do you know what, even if it risks the fact that they will not perform as well, it doesn't really matter. 'cause most of them weren't gonna be going, weren't going to the Olympics anyway. That's it.
And for the couple that are, I suspect they're talented enough and that the, you know, having some other things going on in their life won't actually be a bad thing anyway. Yeah. Um, but yeah, that's my kinda, I wonder if that's one way to, to help with that problem Definitely. Is for people to not just have this one thing from so early on in their life.
Jess:
The people I know that are still running now and sort of running strongly, were not runners actually when they were that young or they ran a bit, but they did ballet, which I know we've talked about before. Or, um, they were a dancer or they had did some sort of martial arts. Do you know, I, something that's laid a very good foundation.
Yeah. Um, the people I know who are really high achieving runners. At about 15 years old, most of 'em aren't even running for pleasure anymore.
Um, which is such a shame. Yeah. And they had, you know, success at that young age when it was probably great and led to some things. Maybe they went to America on a scholarship or something like that, but it's not resulted in a professional sports career kind of.
Absolutely. So it's, yeah, it's something, if I have kids, I'm definitely gonna bear in mind, like if they show an aptitude for something to sort of embrace it, but also be like, okay, we're, we're all so gonna do crafting and reading. Uh, yeah. And just, yeah, I think you're totally right. There just needs to be a balance of things so that then when, if, if it's taken away from them, they don't feel like they've lost everything.
Rhona:
Also, having gone through elite sport, it's funny because I don't know if I even. It's so beautiful and wonderful and it's magical and it opens doors and experiences. You struggle to get elsewhere maybe. But it is quite a painful thing to do. And I don't know if I'd want my kid I don't know if I want my kids.
I think even of my younger brother, he was a really good runner as a teenager and there was a few, a little core group of them kind of competing against each other. One of them did go on to win Olympic medals and world champ medals. Just, but one of them did. The rest of them, I don't think they're doing much running now.
Yeah. I don't know. And I think all of them probably had a fairly unhappy exit from it. I know, certainly that my brother did. Yeah. So I don't know if it like. If you encourage your kid to do something like that, they might be the guy who made it to the Olympics. Yeah. But they might, they're more likely to be the ones who has had a pretty rubbish ending.
Jess:
It’s this tricky little knife edge situation because it's how much do you push yourself or the the child because they could achieve this greatness. But you don't wanna go too far that my mum and dad were very good, very supportive. They, if some days I'd finish my homework and I was meant to be going to training and I'd be like, oh, I can't really be bothered.
Mum would, mum would sort of challenge me. She'd be like, do you mean that we don't have to go, but I just wanna check that you're not gonna turn around late and be like, I wish I'd gone. Yeah. Kind of. So she would, she would check me. But she was never going, you're going to training like we're doing this.You need to train.
Rhona:
Yeah. Which is good. But I think as well when you're younger, you do need some structure and you to go sometimes to, yeah. You know? 'cause there are people in our generation now who just sack everything off of when they can't be bothered or when things get hard. And I wonder if they're, when they said, I don't want to go, their parents went, okay, don't bother them.
Yeah. You know, I think there needs to be a bit of, no, you've committed to this thing. You should go if you are feeling up to it. Obviously the caveat to that is if you're ill injured, whatever. You know, don't go. But if you are feeling up to it, you've committed this thing, you should see it out. Is a good life lesson.
Jess:
I think so. So they, they did that really well. I think for me. So I'm lucky. I'm probably, , I come out relatively unscathed. I still run, I still love running. I think that's because they were so balanced with me. Whereas there were, other parents in our group who would come to the track and be at the other sort of bend away from where our actual coach was.
With their own stopwatch. Whispering, essentially whispering things to their own child, like, go a bit quicker and like, you should be going around her. And kind of adding this element of pressure and stress that was so unnecessary. We had a really great coach and he was very chill, but he was good at what he did.
I'm always really grateful to him as well, because he had a very balanced approach. Understood that we were teenagers. Yeah. And this was our, like, evening after school. So if we were running around chatting, he'd kind of make a joke about it, but he let, he not, he let us, but he wouldn't be like silence.
Like this is, you know, he'd, he'd be like, oh, you guys are running so fast and you're chatting like, yeah. It was nice. I, in loads of ways, I had a really positive running experience. It was only me giving myself a hard time.
Rhona:
In that scenario. And you continued to do that, didn't you? So you went to a particularly difficult university environment and. What worked yourself pretty hard, didn't you?
Jess:
Yeah, so I decided to go to the Uni of Birmingham because its reputation of producing high caliber athletes basically. And it had a track on campus and it was very geared towards producing high performing athletes. And I was like, right, you know, I spent my teen years as sort of like a supporting role.
Let's see if I can do well for myself, essentially. I think that was kind of my thinking. Um, so I, yeah, picked my degree and managed to get a place at Uni of Birmingham and it was like, as soon as I got there, I was just injured. I think I arrived injured. I probably ramped up my running to try and lbe ready to get there.
And then, um, spent all three years essentially doing something called aqua jogging, which is. Where you wear a flotation device, uh, and run up and down a pool. And I was just so determined to be fit and to be able to train with these people that I would do that despite hating, I hate swimming pools. I hate chlorine.
My hair is thick and annoying. I don't like, do you know? You know, and I did that. And I did it day after day, I would go straight to the strength and conditioning kind of group classes that we could do as a team, but that was really the only thing I could join in with. I probably did less than 10 running sessions with the whole group in the whole time I was there.
Rhona:
That is, that's, that's actually when you put it in numbers like that.
So in three years?
Jess:
Yeah.
Because I would do all the aqua jogging, have physio, do my strength work. Get to a point where I was maybe ready to start running a bit and go straight out on the Sunday long run. Mm-hmm.
I was like, I'm back. Uh, and I just, and I wanted to hang out with everyone and, and they were my people and that was my social group. So it was really hard to control that compulsion. And I didn't, because I wasn't performing well at all. I didn't have a particular coach keeping an eye on me.
So there was no one to say, don't do that. I would then, I'd inevitably get injured basically immediately, and then go back to square one. And then after a while, ditched the swimming. 'cause it was so annoying, the swimming and the aqua jogging and started doing spin classes. Mm-hmm. Um. And there was the spin instructor was also a triathlon coach and his little joy in life was taking injured runners and turning them into triathletes.
He was like this is how to kind of make the best out of this situation. But I was very determined to not be a triathlete just 'cause swimming, not my vibe pool. Yeah. It was just not for me. That's fair enough. But I like the cycling. I like the spinning.
Rhona:
Before we jump onto where that takes you, I just think the two things that I picked up on that are that before you even went to the uni, you were scared of being the worst one there. Or not keeping up. Or not being of them being like, why are you here?
Like you said, the large part of why you picked that university is because of. The sporting opportunities. But you're also actually there to get a degree. Yes.
But you're more worried about this part. And also, again, it's kind of funny that because it's not something that you, you don't have to qualify to be in the athletics club. No. Anybody can join, right? Yeah. Just rock up. So why, where does, how does our brain do that? You know, you could have just gone, you could have gone to just the socials. You could have never run a day with them. There are people who do that.
Jess:
My brain doesn't, wouldn't, that wouldn't be like, proper incorrect.
Rhona:
No, no, I get that. But I, but it's just, it's interesting, isn't it? Yeah. Why, why did your brain say that? And it's also clear, I think, that this was a bit of a turning point where it went from joyous and sociable and balanced, and everybody's kind of saying the right things and making it in a nice environment to, you are suddenly now aqua, jogging up and down the pool, which you absolutely hate.
Jess:
Yeah. I still hate it yeah. It wasn't fun.
Rhona:
Not fun. No. But you still did it. You weren't doing this for joy anymore? No.
Jess:
By then, the kind of, I guess it's like endorphin addiction, do you know? Um, I was used to this sort of structured Yeah.
Way of living. Um, it does make you feel good. It's like you do something hard and then you get a rush of endorphins. Yeah. And then I have this thing where I'm like, the meal afterwards, the shower after like everything after doing something difficult feels doubly great.
So that whole thing, um, that package, I was addicted to that then.
Yeah. Yeah. So even though. Uh, realistically I was probably doing myself more damaged than good. Mm-hmm. I still had this, compulsion to train Yeah. And like do my training and, um,
It's just such an easily addictive thing. I dunno why fully, there's a lot about control. There's a lot about, yeah.
You know?
Rhona:
Did you think if you stopped the whole world would unravel?
Jess:
I didn't know what I was without that. Yeah. What I, and I still have it now. I'm like, what do people do if they're not, you know, if they're not going to the gym and they're not going running and they're not doing, it's like, what are they spending their time doing?
Rhona:
Yeah. But, but it's kind of also funny because if you weren't running, you did 10 sessions in the whole of your time. I think, I think everybody who goes for a run is a runner. Yeah. But in this version of your world, in your world, you know, at this point in your life, you're saying, if I go aqua jogging, I'm still a runner. It's hilarious.
Jess:
It's wild. I was like, if this became a competition, I'd probably do really well. I can definitely tell myself little lies. That's, um, but I don't know. I had in my, I think I managed to do. Two or maybe even three of the BUCS. The British University. What is, what does BUCS? Yeah. British University's Championships. Sports. Super duper sports. Sports.
Managed to do the BUCS Cross country
Each year, I managed to drag myself to start line and get round, but then even then, I think every time I was a bit like, why did I do that? Because now I feel embarrassed. Yeah. You're actually against, yeah. I'm, I'm injured and I didn't even do well, but I put on my kit and I went,
Rhona:
I feel for you so much in this period.
I think it must have been a really hard time mentally. Yeah. I'm sure that at the time you thought that you were keeping yourself afloat because you had your structure. You did your aqua, do, you did the pro, you know, you did your rehab.
So you were probably keep, kind of felt like you were keeping yourself, but I bet you were actually quite sad.
Jess:
Yeah, it was tough. And so then I was like, well, I'm not doing. You know, well at running, so now I need to nail my degree. Mm. So I was sort of trying to do both. I was getting up very early to go and do this ridiculous aqua jogging and then go to all my lectures 'cause I couldn't possibly miss a single lecture.
'cause that's naughty, that's how my brain works. And then, um, go probably to, to circuit training, which would've been in the afternoon or evening. Um, and if that wasn't on, I was going to yoga or to a physio. Mm-hmm. , So I was still structuring my day as though I was a kind of full-time running person and still identifying as that.
But then also still trying to, of course my goal wasn't just get the degree, it was like I need to get a first in my degree. I was just pushing myself hard all the time from every angle. Um, I went out and had fun, but. I think now looking back, and if I was telling myself as a young person, I would've probably said, have more fun.
Go to more of the parties, like, be a bit sillier, learn a bit more of the, life lessons that people learn. But I, I treated it like school and like training camp. Mm-hmm. And I was very strict on myself. Mm. Um, and I came out with a two one, which was fine, but it wasn't what I wanted. Yeah. Yeah. And it was about 1% off a first.
Oh man. So it's just like, oh, I did not quite enough. And it, it hasn't mattered whatsoever. Of course it hasn't. This is why it's always so hilarious
Rhona:
When you look back on these things. Um, so for anybody who's not used to that, system at first is the kind of top, it's like getting an A. Yeah. But two one's kinda like getting a b, I guess is the easiest way to compare, you know?
They're both fantastic results. And you will get a job if you have, you know, in most things, if you are a, a person who can apply themselves and that these numbers don't really matter. Mm. Yeah.
Jess:
And it's just like, I wish I'd people would've told that to me and I just wouldn't have listened. I'd have gone, no, no. I've come here, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna get my first, I'm gonna be the best at it.
Rhona:
And you needed it for you though. Yeah. It's not like you even at that point, had a career in mind or something. You weren't like, I need this first because it will get me into this company where I'm gonna do this.
No, you were just, you just needed it for, you didn't, you just needed to do the best possible thing.
Jess:
Again, mom and dad were just like, don't worry about it like that. I, they knew I'll push myself, so I think they don't bother pushing me because Yeah. Yeah. So they weren't on my back.
Rhona:
Yeah. And you're the youngest child, so kind of given up by you.
Jess:
Yeah. They're like, the other hree are fine. No. So you'll be fine. You'll be fine. You'll be fine.
Rhona:
I don't hear you talk about uni friends as much.
Jess:
No. They. Yeah, it was hard, I guess 'cause I was trying to fit in so hard with the athletics crew. Um, and then actually that turned not so great. I ended up in a house with of six female athletes, of which four had disordered eating or an eating disorder.
So that was not, you know, that was quite a difficult mm-hmm. Environment to be in. Um, and I think, and they were all my friends, but I think it was just difficult. And I, and I think I came away from it a bit like, oh gosh, it's quite stressful to live like that. I'm in touch with a couple of them, but they're not super close friends.
And then my two sort of course friends, um, I'm still in touch with. But yeah, my real close friends are sort of friends from post university and then my. Senior school friends. Uni is a bit of a weird gap, I guess.
Rhona:
I, and I, when I hear you talk about the times pre and post, pre-running with joy and team and comradery, and you have a one amazing friend from that, that you've had Laura, who's given you so much.
Um, and you guys have probably really helped each other have healthy relationships running that point. Yeah. Then there's this part of uni and then afterwards you did let go a little bit more as well. You did a bit more socialising in London. Yeah. You put, you were, you have some friends that don't exercise loads.
Jess:
You know, although I tried to pull them into my wave.
Rhona:
Yeah. I know what that's like. So, so how did you come back around from this period at university? Obviously it started touching on, there were some wheels involved.
Jess:
Yes. So yeah, my third year at uni I sort of got into spin.
Spin biking. And I loved it. Um, I did maintain, I guess quite good cardiovascular fitness from all my aqua jogging. So I got on, the bike and was sort of pretty able to just do it. Um, once I'd learned kind of bike handling skills a little bit and how to clip in and, you know, changing gear and stuff, as long as I kept snacking, I was like, oh, I could just keep going.
I can keep going and it doesn't hurt. And I got so used to running, just hurting. Mm. Even, yeah. Even when I'd rehabbed myself, I'd go back and be like, Hmm, I shouldn't hurt, but I'll just carry on. So. Interesting.
Yeah. It was just hurting, just hurts this hobby. Yeah. You hurt so much.
Yeah. Yeah. It's, and it still does it to me now.
And, and I still love it. It's interesting. I think I'm just obsessed with it. Um, but cycling was this thing that I could do and it didn't hurt. And I didn't have to try that Hard to be quite good at it. Yeah. In so far as, so I hadn't tried to compete or anything, but I could keep up on rides and I didn't find it very stressful.
And other people seemed to be sort of struggling more than I was. And I was like, oh, I can do this. This is nice. And then I moved to London, and being a Yorkshire girl, I was like, how can I make this whole thing more affordable? So I decided commuting by bike was the most cost effective way of doing things.
So I got myself a road bike and um, like baptism of fire. Just started riding from East London to West London every day. There and back. And , loved it. Mm-hmm. I'd have probably a close shave with traffic most of those days.
Um, and I got used to it like it. Not bl Well, yeah, blase, but I think that's almost the only way you can cope with it because definitely if I had the appropriate amount of fear every time, I probably wouldn't have kept doing it and then I would've, maybe not cycled, but, I was very cautious.
So I think that's how I managed to come away unscathed. But, I met people riding bikes and then that became more of a hobby than just a way to commute. So I would go part of my journey to Regents Park cycle around with this group of friends, have a lovely sort of coffee and pastry in the morning before work and get to work, do my day's work at, you know, very sort of desk job role and then cycle home or cycle to a gym and meet another friend.
And this sort of became my routine and I was sort of quietly getting quite good at riding bikes and building up this base of fitness and. Um, meeting loads of really cool people and exploring London in a way that I think you can kind of only do by bike.
Rhona:
This was a very full on part of your life, wasn't it?
Jess:
Yeah, it was so fun and I look up back on it very fondly, but I also look back on it with, wow, how did I maintain that? 'cause my days were very long. I would wake up super early to be able to do the sort of pre-work bike riding. Then I would have a full on day at work. I, I'm a medical editor, so I have to concentrate very hard and really kind of apply my brain all day.
It's a very full on sort of nine to five, but it is very good in so far as it was rarely anything more than nine to five. Yeah. Like overtime's not really a thing in that role. And then I was always still in the back of my mind. I'm a runner. I'm a runner. So yeah, I try to go to the gym so that I could do.
Sort of strength and conditioning and mm-hmm. And then on Sundays I'd still try to do like long runs with my friend Laura, who also lived in London at the time. And we would just do mad things as well where we'd have both had our full on day at work, go and do something at the gym or we had a phase of doing back-to-back spin classes.
We'd do two hours of spinning My goodness. And then be like, let's go and get some chicken. We'd have some sort of like meal out and then depending on the day of the week, either get a train back together or I would cycle back and she would sometimes run 'cause she is a runner and is never injured, perpetually fine.
Um, and we'd be home at like 11 ish at night and then I'd set my alarm and go again. And I would tell myself, so by this time I've sort of got into doing audax type events, which are very long distance events, sometimes multi-day cycling. Cycling. Yep. And I got into my head being kind of. Sleep deprived and then getting up and going again was good training for things.
Or if I'd gone out and had drinks on a Friday night and then got up at 5:00 AM on Saturday to ride to Brighton, I was like, brilliant training. I am dehydrated. I think there's something in that I'm not gonna,
Rhona:
I'm not gonna poo poo it completely. I think there's probably something in that that mentally you knew you could do it.I don't think that consistently doing that is good training. I don't think long term, You must have been teetering on a tightrope here.
Jess:
I think so, and I dunno how, but I did come away. I, you know, came away from it in terms of my health unscathed. Mm. I managed it. I don't know how,
Rhona:
we all are lucky in different ways. You, if you push yourself. Even a tiny bit too much in the running side of things, you'll just get injured straightaway. Yeah. Yeah. But maybe you could cope with this more than some people could.
Jess:
Definitely my twenties. Maybe, maybe not now. No.
Rhona:
I kind of think there's something good about just throwing yourself into life like that. I don't think we should all just shy away Rest Days isn't about everybody now forevermore having perfect amount of sleeps every single night. Never doing anything a bit crazy. Not trying challenges, but it's about doing it and recognising how sustainable it is.
Jess:
And I, I was conscious that it wouldn't last forever, I think.
And I, there's a saying I actually do like, and it's everything in moderation, including moderation. So there's times to go a bit over the top. Yes. In whatever way that might be. I like that. Yeah. It's nice. And you can't always be really careful. No. That's not joyous and fun. You don't get anything in life and don't that either.
Yeah. So. But it, there was definitely a point where I was like, I'm tired now. Mm-hmm. It was like, I sort of realised, I was just like, I'm tired. I can't sustain this life. But I did that, that I'd say five years, basically my whole time in London. Mm-hmm. And then there was a point where my partner and I were like, are you really tired?
I'm really tired. Yeah. I'm sure we, but we sort of, we had to sort of take ourselves out of the situation, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Because otherwise you're just, you do feel like you're missing. Yeah. People were always doing stuff. There was always cool things and I didn't wanna miss any of it.
So I did it all. And I think that may became, because university I did miss a lot of stuff. Yeah. So I wonder if I had my little,
Rhona:
You are such a sociable person, You something in the, I think that point in your life you really clicked that that's what really feeds you. You were kind of making up for lost time once you realised that?
Jess:
I think the conversations I would have on the bike. It's amazing. Yeah. I think it's something about being side by side with someone and you're sort of talking into the, into this, into space. And actually they are there and they're listening and you're having the, I talked to relative strangers about really deep stuff.
Because they'd come round in the group and just be next to you. So you'd just be like, how are you doing? And then you just, and you, and I've got some such strong friendships. I've got a sort of WhatsApp group with that sort of original Regents Park. And we are all in conversation there. When anything big happens, you know, we all know.
We go to each other's weddings, you know, and those relationships formed. During that time, I are so precious and amazing. Yeah. And I think at that time, that is what kept me get, like, you know, setting that 5:00 AM alarm was like, I'm gonna go and see these people that I love hanging out with. Yeah. And at the same time, I'm sort of developing this skill of bike riding.
Yeah. I, I think the conversations as well in exercise are really interesting. Obviously I agree. You're not, you being side by side just makes it easier. It's like you're talking to nobody, but also there is somebody there. Yeah. And that's really nice. But I also, I also sometimes wonder if the endorphins help because they're kind of like having a loosen you up, like almost like having a drink.
Rhona:
You know, because they're, that's basically what they are. They're acting on receptors in the body. Mm-hmm. Similar-ish to things like heroin.
Jess:
I unstoppably talk like, it's like sometimes I come away and I was like, I said, too much.
Rhona:
Not, not when I'm around. So I don't let you get a word in,
Jess:
but like the floodgates open.But I, and I think that was so good for my mental health as well. Then what I found when I took myself out of that situation, the way sort of life worked out and the timings worked out was then we were plunged into lockdown and I started trying to do all this bike riding, but by myself or well, yeah.
Bought by myself Really? And my mental health went down the toilet. Yeah. And you know, it's, I dunno, causality, blah, blah, blah. I don't know. It is hard to say what thing caused that. Yeah. But it's very hard not to assume it was the lack of constant social. Mm-hmm. Um, like people to just talk at. And I think that's what I needed.
And then suddenly I didn't have that anymore in the same way I had a partner and we would talk, but it's not the same. Yeah. And I suddenly was like, oh gosh, I'm not doing so well.
Rhona:
I think you really like to talk things through as well. I think you are you, if you are left to your own thoughts without anybody to Keep them in check. They run away from you, don't they? Yeah. And I think, and so there's so much value in that. Yeah. So let's talk about that part of your life, because it also coincides with probably doing some of the biggest, largest challenges, biggest training blocks you ever did. Yeah. And suddenly you were doing them all on your own.
Jess:
Yeah. In, in solitude basically. You know, I would, um, I'd be on the turbo Trainer, which is the static bike. I do four hour blocks on there, headphones in. I might watch something I might not. Um, madness. Madness. Because I was following, I had a coach at this time and I was training for, so I became part of a team, an amateur women's team called the Internationelles, whose goal was to protest about the inequality in professional road cycling and somehow I, I found myself in that team again, massive imposter syndrome. Like somehow I'm here. Somehow.
Rhona:
I wonder what it could have been. Could it have been your talent, your results, you're amazing, you know, rap sheet, of incredible achievements.
Jess:
I still dunno. Just found myself in there and I felt so, very honoured to be part of it. The year before when I wasn't in the team yet, they'd ridden the whole route of the Tour de France the day before the pro men's Peloton had gone through and they'd self-funded the whole thing. Sort of had one support car, incredible achievement because.
By the sounds of it was incredibly uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. You know, doing all that cycling and then sleeping and usually not very good accommodation. Having to, the transfer days were very long, very uncomfortable, no real sort of support. And then sort of the second year when I joined, I was very lucky because that had obviously got a lot of attention.
So now they had funding. So we were able to have sort of a support car, like a few people to help with things. We had lovely kits, we got sunglasses. It was like a little taste of being a professional athlete. And I was like, oh my gosh, how lucky am I? But of course what came with that was, oh my gosh, don't embarrass yourself.
Don't be the one that's the worst. Don't get injured and not be able to do it. Because everything, all the challenges we did were sort of dependent on all of us. Yeah. Completing you were a team. We had to do, we all had to do it really for it to work. And initially we were meant to also be riding the route of the Tour de France, but because of lockdown.
It transpired that we couldn't, so we had to come up with this new plan, and that was to ride , on static bikes as a group and cover the distance of the Tour de France in under a hundred hours as a relay. Awful.
Rhona:
Then who came on with that?
Jess:
I don't know. It was me and then, um, having done that one day rest and then doing an Everest up a, a hill in Wales called the (unable to pronounce welsh word)
The Bwlch y Groes
Rhona:
Sorry. Welsh people, so I'm so sorry. We apologise.
Jess:
And um, we, um, I had to train for that on my own, basically. Yeah. So, um, oh, and Everest is where you do the same ascent as the height of Everest in one go. On one climb. Only the. Vertical gain that you get during the ascent count.
So if there's any kind of ups during the descent, you have to sort of subtract that from the total. So it's just a very long day on the bike.
Rhona:
The people who make these rules going up and down only are interested in suffering. Yes. And they they were not in. They're not in, yeah. Yeah. It's a very interesting concept, but that's another conversation.
Jess:
It is. Um, so yeah, I got, I had a coach for this and a lot of my training was very controlled and it had to be in specific heart rate zones. And so living in the Peak District, it was hard to achieve that stuff outside. So I actually did end up just doing loads of things on a very controlled environment, um, which is inside.
So I did all this training by myself, and there were definitely moments in there where I got really burnt out and I'd get really upset. Mm. And I had a very understanding coach, and he was great. Very scientific, but also very holistic. And I would just be like, I'm, I'm done with this. And he'd let, he'd sort of let me have these weeks where he is like, go do what you want.
Go ride however you want. Don't wear a heart rate. I just do what you want. And I needed those resets.
Rhona:
at this point you're now becoming really actively aware of how important the men that mental and physical rest is. And how it's it's needed to get you to year goal. You can't cut it out.
Jess:
But I seemed to need permission to rest.
Rhona:
You couldn't do it.
Jess:
I couldn't just, yeah. Because I would assume I was being lazy if I just Yeah.
Rhona:
So you needed, you knew it was important, but you needed somebody to say it was the right thing to do.
Jess:
so yeah, when we did those challenges, it was amazing and it, and I loved it and I loved being in that kind of bubble of the team.
And the next year we did a, a world record attempt and we did Lands end to John O Groats as a four women team. And we. Got the world record, woo woo hoo. 44 hours and three minutes. It's very cool, isn't it? To go from Lands End to John O Groats . And then we spent the next eight days riding back and I actually felt it was very nice.
I sort of recovery rode my way back. I felt better and better and better. And that was so nice and I absolutely loved it. But I think I knew whilst I was doing that , my brain was sort of like, this is the last big thing. 'cause I'd really, I felt like I'd really put myself in quite a few holes to get there.
Because it all, this sort of, the lockdown stuff and the new sort of life and the place we lived had just meant that I'd ended up doing so much of the training by myself and I realised, I love this, I love cycling, but what I love about all of this is the people. Yeah. And what I loved when I was running was the people.Yeah. And the fact I was able to achieve things was like a happy accident. Yeah. And actually when you took away the people, I wasn't that fussed.
It was, yeah, a happy accident. They were able to achieve stuff. Yeah. But, but, but you were also, you were also very driven and talented and, but yeah. Yeah,
Rhona:
So that was a big turning point.
Jess:
Definitely. And that was my early thirties, I think. And then I started to realise, I guess there's more to life. I'm not just a runner actually. I able to do other things. I started to have other priorities. You know, I'd love a family and you can be high performing athlete and have a family.
Those two things definitely can happen, but you do need a lot of luck on your side for that.
You need lots of things to go well. You need your body to be happy with you. And, um, I think I started to understand that I couldn't keep pushing myself to that extent, and it wasn't, I don't think I'm a very, when I'm burnt out, I'm not a very nice.
You know, not a very nice person.
Rhona:
I mean, I've never known you not to be a nice person.
jess:
That's very kind. I guess the people you're closest to get the worst, don't they? Yeah. You'd say my partner was probably getting, you know, the worst brunt of me being in a bad mood basically because I was tired.
I'd, I'd overdone it.
Rhona:
but you recognise that, which I think is super impressive. And I think ever since then you have really fought to have more balance.
Jess:
Yes. And meeting you and Hetty and honestly, Peak Gravel Gang being kind of a staple part of my life really helped me to find the balance of I can do this stuff, I can be outside, I can push myself up, up a hill, but I don't actually, I don't have to get up the hill.
Rhona:
Actually, it's really nice to get up the hill last and help someone else. Mm-hmm. Get up there too.
Yeah. There's so many other things you can do. You don't have to do everything for yourself too. It's quite nice to realize that you can. Bring, lift other people up with you.
And that's really lovely, isn't it?
Jess:
I think I had to learn to find joy in, in that again. Mm-hmm. Because that, that is where I found joy initially. Yeah.
Rhona:
And I think we've been so lucky about the point in our lives that we met me and you Yeah. And we met Hetty, our other friend because you, it was just after this sort of turning point where you said, I need more balance.
Yeah. And I'm just eternally looking for that wonderful balance. Yeah. Um, and Hetty, our friend, is very much the same. We've talked about it in her episode, and I think we are really lucky that that's kind of the foundation of our friendship, I think. Yeah. Because that was just on the table from the beginning.
Yeah. It was just really clear. We're all people who can hammer ourselves, but actually what we need help with is saying it's okay not to.
Jess:
Yeah. And I think we give that to each other. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and. It is something about having like a safe group of people who you feel like you can. Say that to you and also be that way.
You know, turn up and like, I'm not my best today. Yeah. But I know you, I know you're not gonna judge me. Yeah. For it. Yeah. And I think I went through a lot of life feeling like I had to present a certain way mm-hmm. And achieve a certain amount to be accepted. Mm-hmm. And so finding these groups of people and, and friendship groups where I'm like, I can just be.
And they just. Appreciate me for exactly how I turn up today. Mm. I think it helps because I think it would be wrong of me to be like, I come here naturally and I'm so wise, it's like I can also fall back on being proud of the stuff I've achieved.
So I can be like, yeah, I'm not that fit right now, but I once, I once was, you know
Rhona:
You can't be every day for the rest of your life. That is an impossible thing to dream for. Yes. And the second you start to dream for that, you are gonna end up in a deep, dark hole.
Like, that's the one thing that I would say to any person out there, never, ever aim to be at your peak fitness forevermore. You just can't. You can't do it.
You can't. No. And you, something will happen if you, if that's what you're aiming for and that's the only thing that makes you feel satisfied, something's gonna happen one day that's going to ruin that for you and it's gonna be horrific.
Jess:
Something's got to give kind of, and it always will.
And. But, but, and so I think my age like aging has made me realise that I get, I go through these like peaks and troughs. Once you've been down in a trough, it's actually so fun to get back up to that peak and it comes back and it comes back quicker and quicker the more sensible you are.
Rhona:
Yeah. If you don't mess it up.
Jess:
And it takes a lot of learning. And I think that's the only reason I've got here now is like I had to, you have to learn the hard way. Yeah. But try and learn and then, yeah. Yeah. And I think I still have the little, like, I call it like a little demon inside me.
That kind of gives me a hard time sometimes. But I've learnt to say I've learnt to tell it to be quiet, basically. Yeah. And I'm like, it'll come back. Everything will be okay. Yeah. Yeah. Like I'll find my kind of feet again, or fitness or whatever, and.
Rhona:
You know how you were just saying, you know, it's really important to have friends who see you as you.
Yeah. If you have that, wherever you found them, sometimes it's easiest to find them doing an activity because then you can have these conversations that let you express yourself honestly. Yeah. But once you found them, whatever you decide to do, they're going to, they're gonna still want you in their life.
Yeah. I think that's really important. The me, you and Hetty, we rarely go running or cycling together. Yeah. Very, very rarely. The thing that links us all is we love to do those things. Yeah. But we actually very rarely do that. We will most commonly go for a walk. We might go for a cold dip.
We will hang out with hetty's little kids.
Jess:
We'll get coffee.
Rhona:
We'll get coffee. Yeah. How good are those activities? So good.
Jess:
And you guys, you don't have to do something really hard before you go and do them. You can just do them. You can just be there. Oh my gosh.
Rhona:
And it's even, and, and some, some people, they won't want another person to do that with.
They just, they're, they need the space on their own. That's mm-hmm. You know, and, and I, I'm giving you permission right now. Go and do it on your own. Um, if you, if that's what you need. Um, but we've been really lucky because I think that all three of us won't go and do those things on our own. We actually need each other bit to do.
I wouldn't give myself, I wouldn't choose, go and do a restful activity like that, an activity that is really good for my mental and physical health.
Without you going with you. Yeah. And it it is so good to have that, to find the person to do that with. Yeah.
Jess:
Because your instinct is to choose the hard thing saying.
Rhona:
Yeah. I think my instinct would be I'd go for a run or a ride or something, but it's not one maybe needed in that moment.
Yeah. Um, whereas going to do it with you feels so legitimate. Yeah. It feels like a thing. And also get to see you. Yeah. Or sometimes I wouldn't go and do anything. Maybe I would do something, maybe I'll work more. Yeah. Or I'll do another side project mm-hmm. In that time when actually what I needed was a break.
Jess:
Yeah. Because we are adults now, and all of us have to work for a living. Right. So you, you, you are working really hard all week and that's a certain type of stress on your body. And then at the weekend our, I think natural instinct is like, go and do something. Cool and hard. And I think we sort of, for each other have worked out.
Actually we need to. Mm. Not always do that. Sometimes it's fine. Mm-hmm. But you can't always do it and No. You know? Yeah. You have, you, there's a lot more on us now as adults and that sort of restful time is so important. Mm-hmm. And it's, yeah, finding joy in the like, restful moments. And our holiday last week, hiking was a revelation.
Not a, yeah, no, it was a revelation to me because I've done load of walking in my life, but I've never sort of hiked in that way.
Rhona:
You said when we were out, suddenly you came out with, I think I could really get into this walking malarky love. Yeah. And I was like, gosh, okay. It's just walking.
Jess:
Yeah. But there were poles.
Yes. We had poles. The poles made me feel mountains still different. Um, and it was this lovely. Interim where it was restful. And exciting and interesting. All at the same time
Rhona
and very healthy for us. Yeah. Like if it is healthy in every way, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And if you do have a little demon that needs you to move a little bit Yeah. It's tick that box it, tick it.
Jess:
Because we still were like, Hey, we've done this much elevation. Yeah. Like all of us are there with our Strava still, but it kind of is a healthy little middle ground, I think to Yeah. But I wouldn't do it.
Rhona:
I mean, I would, I do go walking. 'cause I have a dog, so do you? We have to do that. Gotta do the walks. But, um, and actually I have to thank her so much for some of my healthy behaviours. Yes. Because it's so good for me, the walking, I think.
But yeah, if I, if it weren't for a dog or, or that friendship. Then I wouldn't bother.
Jess:
We all need to be more dog. They stretch every time they change position.
Rhona
Do I think there's a lot, they stretch so many times a day.
Jess:
They sleep loads. Yeah. 16 hours outside or something every single day. And they get heaps of steps 'cause they've got four feet.
Rhona:
And they're completely in the moment
Jess:
They're not worrying about what happened yesterday or what's gonna happen tomorrow.
Jess:
So there we go guys. That's so good. Be more dog.
Rhona:
I think our, you know, our chat has focused a lot on sport. I think that's, that's your story and I'm really glad that that's what we've covered. It's also something that we are really passionate about talking about.
Yeah. And actually it might be interesting in the future to have a more nerdy, numbery conversation. Yeah. Doing this again because we. Uh, we do, we really enjoy that as well. We're talking about things rest days, training days, things like that in quite an abstract way. But, uh, we, we, me and Jess will regularly talk about it in quite a specific down to the kind of, what session are you doing? Running way. We like data.
Jess:
Which has been a big shift because when I started running I didn't even have a watch. Yeah. It's interesting now with so many apps and now I even have kind of a rest app. Yeah. Do you know, telling you like something, still telling me what to do to achieve the correct rest, which is probably something to delve into at another point.
Rhona:
I think that you have a very lovely story, especially with where you're at, Jess right now. You have done such a good job of coming. Kind of full circle from where you were when you first started running and it was a pure joy and you were making friends. Yeah. And you probably did loads of just health healthy frivolous activities.
You know, when you're a kid, that's what you do. Yeah. You don't think about these, don't think about where is this activity getting me? What will it achieve me? Yeah. You just go out, you say, I wanna go play in the park. Mm-hmm. You know, I'm go play in the park. Good. It's been really, really enjoyable to explore that.
Thank you very much for your time and your wise, wise words.
Jess:
Thanks for having me. Thank you.