Veronica Melkonian Transcript

Rhona: okay, Veronica, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much for being here. I haven't given you much away about what we're gonna talk about, but why do you think I asked you to be on this podcast?

Veronica: Oh no, that's, uh, why do you think you asked me? We enjoy cycling together

Rhona: It's a good start, right?

Veronica: because we can have a conversation on a bike and not be like, I'm gonna cycle away from this person. Um.

Rhona: There aren't that many people I come across that, that kept the fall into that category.

Veronica: Um, why, uh, I guess I have spoken at various events about various different things that I do in cycling and climbing, and ways that I interact with the outdoors. Um, goodness. I have no idea how to answer this question.

Rhona: That's okay. I just thought it'd be funny to see what you said. We met through a cycling community, which was very joyous and it's a very lovely way to meet somebody and cycle alongside them. And no prejudgments and all Joyousness. Um, but immediately you had a lot of, a lot of good energy.

Um, and then, and your, a lot of opinions, but very interesting ones and opinions are good for podcasts. Um, and then. You, I, I found out more about some of the stuff you do. You're you're a photographer, you will do various media projects. Um, and you tend to use your work to try and improve the access for everybody to the outdoors, but also to improve representation in the outdoors, which is something I am so into.

And this entire rest days community is into that because everybody should have access to the outdoors as a tool for rest. Um, but you also have some interesting opinions about, uh, pushing yourself about, you know, where the boundary lies between healthy and happy. So I think we're gonna get deep into that.

Veronica: That sounds like a much better answer than anything I said.

Rhona: No, no. Your answer was good to know where we're at. Okay. Take me all the way back to little Veronica. You're a little child. You're growing up. Where did you grow up?

Veronica: I grew up, I was born in London. Um, but uh, when I was very small, like three or four, we moved out. Uh, my parents separated and we moved out to Hartfordshire area. Um, so I grew up in the Shires, um, in the, yeah, in the Hobbit Shires. Uh, and

Rhona: Hobbit Shires.

Veronica: In the Hobbit Shires, it literally in my head it is the Hobbit Shires.

Rhona: which parent did you grow up with?

Veronica: I grew up with my dad, uh, which is, yeah, kind of. Um, I think when pe people separate, I think it's unusual for kids to end up growing up with their dad. Um, but yeah, me and my brother, we grew up with my dad, so solo papa vibes. Um, solo immigrant dad, Papa vibes, which is a whole kettle of fish.

But, um, yeah,

Rhona: Tell me more about that. Kettle of Fish.

Veronica: Um, he, well, my dad's, um, he is born in Lebanon, but of Armenian heritage. So, hi. Both his parents are Armenian and they were displaced from where they grew up because of the Armenian genocide of 1915, which is, there's a whole history topic there. But essentially, um, his first language is Armenian, but he grew up in Lebanon, um, and came to the UK like in the seventies. So we grew up with, um, you know, I would take like falafel to school, but my school was like a very white middle class school. So everyone's like, what's that? Uh, and I remember

Rhona: Which is kind of funny now that Falafel is a very white middle class food to eat.

Veronica: Honestly, I remember, I remember one of my best mates in school tasting hummus before she did. She was like, what is that? That looks disgusting. And I was like, honestly babes, when you try this, this is gonna change your life. And obviously hummus is now

Rhona: And it did.

Veronica: Exactly, now

Rhona: There you go.

Veronica: the thing. Um, but I think my dad coming from. Like coming from east to west, he wanted like the very best for his kids, and wanted to give us, when he had the finances, he wanted to give us like the best that life could be. So, um, part of that was, um, we learned to, we went skiing, uh, when we were quite small every year. and our family finances were very up and down.

So some years it didn't happen, but when it did, um, yeah, it was like my favourite thing ever to do was to go skiing with my family once a year in the Alps. Um, and it definitely instilled the first taste of mountainous adventure that, uh, yeah, I love the mountains. I would choose the mountains over the sea any day.

Rhona: Yeah, I have to say I'm on that side. Um, so and was the skiing purely fun? Was there anything else behind it where there's an, was there an expectation of anything with beyond, just go on a holiday and enjoy it or just, just purely for fun?

Veronica: No, actually I think it was fun,

Um, I think there was an element of like wanting to be seen to, to be doing this white privilege sport, as a family that necessarily from that background. so I think whilst we were there, it didn't, like we were just having fun and all I remember was just like mucking about, um, and just, yeah, throwing myself into soft powder and that was lovely. Um, but I think it was, yeah, there was an element of like. This is a, you know, a, a rich kid thing to do. So, you know, if my kids go skiing, then that, you know, we have a part of that culture. So I think it, there was no pressure to do anything or to be good. Um, it was just fun, which is great. Um, but I think, yeah, there was like an element of prestige about just being seen to do it.

Rhona: Yeah. Okay. So I have, I have, I have two directions I wanna go from there. So, do you still have something in your life now that is as fun as jumping into fluffy powder? As frivolous and as Absolutely, you know, silly as that.

Veronica: That is such a good question. And I think if you asked me that question a year and a half ago, I think the answer would've been no. Um, but, uh, I actually think discovering. gravel cycling, um, became the fluffy powder. And actually someone once told me a mountain biker was like, oh, skiing's really similar to mountain biking.

And I thought they were like, I, I literally thought they were talking nonsense. I thought, how is that possible? They couldn't be more different. And the first time I, uh, I was on a shoot and I was on an e-bike in the North York mos for like an hour. And I was like, this is like skiing. Um.

Rhona: buy into that a lot. I think getting down steep corners, my, I use like the mentality of skiing, you know, like I was like, it's the same. You just have to like point it down the hill for a second and get it under control.

Veronica: Yeah, literally. Um, so I think, yeah, the getting into gravel cycling last year was definitely bringing back to fun. Um, now that I've done it for more than 12 months, I do find that it's harder to get the fluffy powder feeling of fun all the time. Um, but I'm trying to find, yeah. Other ways in my life to do the fluffy powder fun.

Rhona: Yeah. Why do you think that is? Because once something's been in our lives for a while, we all seem to get a bit complacent about it. Like it can't seem to bring that same childlike enjoyment. Do we ruin it or do we become complacent? Where do you think that comes from?

Veronica: Ooh, good question. I think there's two parts to that I think. For me personally, I am a very, um, naturally competitive person, particularly with my own performance. So I love seeing myself get better at something. So I think for me, I am plagued and faded to always suck the joy outta things because I'm like, wanna be, I wanna see how far I can go or how fast or how, how, how, how much I can improve. but I think there is an element of fun to that, that I really enjoy. and yeah, there'll be like moments of flow that just feel like ecstasy no matter how, you know, how far into that process I am. Um, in general, does that happen? I think, yeah, I think it's really hard when you, you know, the first time or the first few times you do something. You are doing it, you know, with no expectations. You're doing it. You are, you are just, you are just in it. You're just experiencing it without pre-judging it. And maybe, and you're just really fully present. Um, and maybe, yeah, the more you do something, the more it is less of a novelty. Um, and those experiences are more, you're more expecting of them, you know, what's gonna come next. Um, you know, there's a reason why people do, uh, a hundred kilometer ultra runs and, you know, they've had their fix and now they need to, to get that fix again. They have to push it further and further. Uh, but I think it kind of comes back to. Some sort of state of zen is like, you know, can you enjoy doing the washing up at the end of the day?

'cause you're gonna have to do it every single day. If you can find a way to enjoy it, then you're onto something instead of always needing more.

Rhona: Yeah, I actually read something you wrote about, kind of similar thing about, uh, when you're doing a task, if you kind of put it in your head as suffering, then it will be suffering. But if you are in the moment, uh, about it, and you will, uh, you can enjoy it and you can see the smaller parts of it, and don't, if you're not thinking about the end of the task and if you're just thinking about what you're actually doing.

Veronica: Yes, yes. That was a real experience that I had, in Arizona. It was like, I remember learning that as it was happening. I was in so much physical pain because I was, I don't know, slow or left behind or. I think there was one day where I'd left my bag, uh, eight kilometers back and I

Rhona: This story that you told about leaving the bag and having to go back for it, really, I felt that, I mean, there is nothing I hate more than having to go back on myself and that situation. Oh man.

Veronica: Yeah. So that was bad. And I think I was so, I was so annoyed for having forgotten this item at a peace spot. And that return journey after having picked it up was so physically painful. Um, just because I didn't wanna be there

Rhona: Mm-hmm.

Veronica: to be, you know. 15 k further down, hanging out with my mates. and I think I just stopped and I had to have a moment to be like, it's not gonna be fun if you're just continuing to chase where you originally were. like, you're in this beautiful landscape, you're doing this activity, which is imbued with so much, you know, privilege. Like you get to do this stretch again. No one else gets to do that.

Rhona: I know. I find that so interesting. Right? So the first time you wrote it, you were maybe still in pain, but you were probably thinking, wow, it's so beautiful. Oh, it's amazing. I've seen another new thing. It's incredible. And then the second time, somehow it's the worst thing ever. I, um, had a very similar thing happen to me this summer where I was, I was going down a valley, and when I went down it, I was like, this is one of the most beautiful valleys I've ever been in my entire life.

I, I genuinely said, at the end of the day, I was like, I think this might be in the top 10 days of my life. This was the greatest thing I've ever experienced. Every single minute was so beautiful. I had the greatest. And then the next day, due to some unfortunate events, I had to go back and do it again. And I was so upset.

I was like, no, I had to go all the way back, 12 hours back. I just, what is this? I, I don't wanna do that. I was like, what? And then like halfway through the day, I was like, what am I, yesterday, somehow yesterday I said, it was one of the best days of my life. And now today, I'm not even, I, I'm, I'm not appreciating it.

What is, what am I doing?

Veronica: I hear you. That's funny, isn't it? Yeah.

Rhona: It's definitely a perspective thing, but I don't know where those perspectives came from. Uh, why I, but I think you're hitting it, you're hitting onto it that if we are just always in the moment, we're not thinking about the end, then that is, it doesn't matter so much. It's still just as beautiful the second time round.

Veronica: Yeah, literally. And yeah, the one, the moment I like stopped and I was like, stop chasing the pack. Uh, literally all the pain from my body just disappeared. And

Rhona: It's amazing.

Veronica: I'm gonna take this at my own pace. And I had like, yeah, four or five hours of beautiful, peaceful cycling

Rhona: Hmm.

Veronica: it was very, yeah, it was very meditative. Once I

Rhona: that is, it's amazing that as well. So pain is a super, super interesting topic. I think. Um, I'm really interested in it medically. I'm interested in it psychologically. I'm interested in it because it's part, or it's sold as part of the package for a lot of the things I do. And. I, I, I think somewhat there has to be some discomfort in staying fit.

I don't think you can quite get around that, right? Just if we go to the basis of health, to raise our heart rate and be a little bit out of breath is a bit uncomfortable. I mean, we can sell that discomfort as a positive thing and enjoy it. I think,

Veronica: Yeah.

Rhona: and that's where all this pain cave nonsense comes from because maybe because we had to sell it to, to, to do it, to get the, but there's a point right where pain is just pain and it's too much.

Veronica: Yeah. Yeah,

Rhona: And, and, and it's very easy to cross that line. I dunno how we know it's really easy to not know where the line is.

Veronica: Mm.

Rhona: So where for you, I know you enjoy a challenge and you enjoy, you have to be in some discomfort to get that reward. And that is an absolutely reasonable way to enjoy the outdoors. And, you know, but where's the line?

Veronica: It's a good question. Where is the line? Um,

Rhona: Have you crossed it? Maybe that's the,

Veronica: have I crossed the line? Um, I think there was thinking about in, in climbing, I don't think the. And it's very different to the type of like discomfort you get. In sort of a more endurance based sport. and it's more like you have to overcome something.

You, I don't ever feel like I'm in physical like I'm not overcoming some physical discomfort. I think the thing that I'm most overcoming when I'm climbing is some psychological of pushing myself through some fear barrier. And there is a line there of a good push and a bad push.

Rhona: yeah.

Veronica: where you are operating in your growth zone and you are stepping a little bit outside of your comfort and you are learning new things and you can put into play things that you've been working on and it's all like good challenges.

But if it suddenly takes a turn and you are doing too many things that are new at once, then it can very quickly turn into like, oh, am I putting the groundworks in for like a traumatic. Memory here, am I gonna actually not be able to come back from this? Um, so I think climbing is kind of interesting and that line is really difficult to learn.

And I think I have to, I've had to learn what are my bodily, signals of where I'm at for here. and that, you know, sometimes is like, oh, when I stop being able to think clearly, that probably means I'm going into some state of terror. Then, then like a healthy pushing of fear. Um, and yeah, I think like there are physical sensations.

Like if I'm beginning to shake, then I'm no longer, um, controlling my, even my body. Uh, so in climbing, which is yeah, a kind of a more of a gymnastics style of movement, I think I've had to over time learn my own personal, physical symptoms of. Good challenge and bad challenge.

Rhona: Can you see how that's quite confusing and intimidating to somebody who's new to the outdoors, right? Because the, you're on the outside, you're all these people are saying you should try going to the outdoors and doing something active. It'll be really good for you mentally and physically. It'll be great.

And I even, you know, the whole thing behind this community is that's kind of a rest day for most people actually from their normal life.

Veronica: yes.

Rhona: But what do you, but what, what you're all these people are saying, yeah, but it's painful and you have to know not to put yourself in too much pain, but you should be in some pain.

Veronica: Yeah.

Rhona: And then on the outside you're thinking, I don't wanna be in any pain. I, it is so confusing. And I don't know. I think us presenting physical activities with the word pain involved at all really isn't very helpful.

Veronica: No, no, that doesn't sound fun.

Rhona: No, but then also, I don't wanna lie because there's probably gonna be some discomfort at least. Right,

Veronica: yeah. Yeah. And I've seen it happen. I've seen lesser experienced climbers, pushing themselves way too far and almost to the point where I wanna go over to that person and be like, you don't have to do that. but it's not my, like it Yeah. In, in public spaces where you are not, you don't know someone.

You can't always go and tell them what to do.

Rhona: right. And you also dunno what's pushing them to do that. You don't know any of the backstory. It's a really complicated situation, isn't it? You just, um, but you also don't wanna see somebody get hurt and get put off either.

Veronica: Yeah. Exactly. Um, yeah, so I think, I mean, when I first, uh, that's, I mean. it's, that's a hard question. Like how do you, when you're first starting out, know where that line is? You just don't do you.

Rhona: Hmm.

Veronica: and I think even by stepping outside the door, you're gonna be entering a new space of challenge

Rhona: Mm-hmm. Mm.

Veronica: So I think there is no such thing as going too slow in something you are just starting out with.

Rhona: Yeah. Yeah.

Veronica: if it feels too easy, great. You know, like at some point you are, you can, you can start adding new things in one at a time. But

Rhona: Mm.

Veronica: full hog and give yourself some serious long term, I mean physical or emotional damage.

Rhona: Yeah. Well, actually I hadn't even thought of it. I suppose I was mostly thinking about physical damage when I brought it up, but you're right. Um, when you talked about, uh, the climbing, and I think I've seen that in mountain biking where maybe somebody's quite new to it, they've got a lot of confidence.

They don't know what, being a little bit overconfident for your skills could end, end up with a pretty traumatic crash psychologically, and that might ruin it for you. I hadn't really thought about it from that perspective.

Veronica: Yeah. Well, in climbing you, you see it all the time where people are then horrified to climb on a rope

Rhona: Mm-hmm.

Veronica: have been pushed too far. And it's, and fear of falling is one of our most basic instincts, or that is like, intrinsic to any human being that is, you know, very deep in our ancestral DNA. Um, and it's something that you're trying to override. Um, so yeah, it makes sense why it's there. Uh, but then people wanna go climbing after they've had some traumatic experience and they Yeah. Almost are doing themselves. Almost like neurological damage. I mean, I'm not someone that much about what's going on, um, from a scientific perspective, but I've Yeah.

Seen it happen and I've experienced some

Rhona: And you observe the world. That's kind of what you do, right? That's, that's, that's what being a photographer, making, uh, you know, magic and stuff from other people's experiences is you, you are, you see, you see things. So I think there's a lot actually in what you see.

You probably have more wisdom than you know.

Veronica: Yeah. But in terms of cycling, I think it's very different because, um, or like any sort of endurance sport, uh, where that line is of challenge because yeah, I mean, when I was doing that long distance bikepacking trip in Arizona, um, I went in too deep on the second day.

Um, and I almost had to pull out from the whole trip, because of my inexperience. Um, and I

Rhona: because you'd never gone to the line before, so you're just like, right,

Veronica: yeah.

Rhona: everybody else is doing this day. I can do it, surely. I'm just gonna find out.

Veronica: Exactly, and I found out,

Rhona: Yeah. So that kind of, and, and, and that day, I know that you probably feel really proud of yourself for overcoming it now, but overall would you do it differently? I don't know.

Veronica: um, I actually don't think I overcame it. I

Rhona: Okay. That's so that's actually really, really good. Interesting. That's really interesting.

Veronica: like, I think I went so deep into the red, um, that I, like my, I couldn't like do, I couldn't move basically. And I, I was, I wasn't like, thankfully I wasn't like so ill that other people needed to look after me, but I basically couldn't like, take another step, um, let alone get back on my bike and cycle downhill for 20 kilometres, which is all I had to do next,

Rhona: Yeah.

Veronica: and I couldn't do it.

Um, so I think I hit the bottom and all, and I. My response to that was cry hysterically for 45 minutes,

Rhona: Hmm.

Veronica: um, uncontrollably at the poor woman in the American diner. She kept bringing me food and was like giving me such sweet, sympathetic eyes. Like she knew she couldn't do anything for me, but she was like, oh, here you go darling.

 And I think I just accepted that I couldn't go on anymore. And if I did, then I would be out. So I

Rhona: Hmm.

Veronica: for help in that moment. And, um, got, I lift, uh, to the end of that day.

Rhona: what stopped you from asking for help Sooner? Why did you have to get to breaking point?

Veronica: I wanted to get to the top.

Rhona: No, that's okay. I, whatever answer you gave would've been valid. It's your experience of it. I just wanted to know.

Veronica: it was literally the, the end of that longest amount of climbing I've ever done. But also the longest climb of that whole

Rhona: Hmm.

Veronica: two days of going up this mountain.

Rhona: Mm-hmm.

Veronica: and the second day was ending at the top of it, and then you had like a 20 k descent to the camping for that night. But it was like, uh, um, I don't know. Yeah. It was like a serious, felt like a serious achievement to get to the top of this mountain where you were cycling up through like seven different, I think they called them biospheres spheres.

Rhona: There you go. Okay, so imagine you're there again except that you've, you're on your second time round. You have, you've got your nutrition, your hydration. You are so fit. You're just feeling fantastic. You're flying up the hill

Veronica: it.

Rhona: you meet this person also called Veronica, such a coincidence, and she is struggling her way up, and she looks not good.

She's pale, she's a bit, you know, like, is she actually fully with it? And she's like, I, I don't know if I could do this, you know? But I really wanna get to the top. But I also feel absolutely horrendous. What are you gonna, what would you say to her now?

Veronica: Um, I think there were moments on, in that, in that position where I saw some trucks pass and I contemplated asking them for a lift, but I that was okay. Um, and so I think I would've just affirmed to that person, to my, to this other Veronica. I would’ve if you need to get a lift to the top to make it, that's okay.

No one will judge you for it.

Rhona: Yeah, because no one, nobody would judge you, right? Not nobody would even care. In fact, some people would give you a pat on the back and be like, well done. You didn't cause anybody else a bad experience because they had to pick you up off the side of the road. Well done because you haven't caused yourself any damage.

Veronica: Exactly. And I found out later that some people did, and I was like, what? so I think I would've just told, I would just tell her that that's an option,

Rhona: Hmm.

Veronica: then it's up to her what she does with that information, because I, yeah, I think just knowing someone else

Rhona: Mm.

Veronica: okay would've maybe been enough.

Rhona: Why did you think it wasn't okay?

Veronica: Um, maybe there was a part of me that wanted, that felt like this was like a very group of badass women that I, that was at this level that I had in my mind that I wanted to be a part of.

Rhona: Yeah.

Veronica: Um,

Rhona: were a part of them either way though, weren't you?

Veronica: she knows that now.

Rhona: Oh, man. Yeah, but what gave you that impression?

Veronica: I don't know. I hadn't like done anything like it before. I felt like I didn't even really feel like I knew anything about bikes. I had owned my bike for three months.

Rhona: Yeah.

Veronica: I like, I'd never done anything like it. I didn't know what the level, I didn't know what is like normal for those sorts of events.

Rhona: Yeah.

Veronica: and I think that it plays a part of the answer to it.

Like there was also me just wanting to get to the top.

Rhona: Yeah, because you've said you are, you like to turn things to a challenge and you like to see where your limit is. Right.

Veronica: I do, yes.

Rhona: Okay. So there's partly, there's partly that, and that's totally fair enough. And I, and I'm really, really interested in that. And I have no 

judgments because inbuilt Rhona is exactly the same. 

Veronica: inbuilt Rhona.

Rhona: But I, I'm also interested in the part where you thought like maybe that was part of this group and this culture. So just to give a little bit of context here, Veronica was on a rally with a bunch of women and this rally is advertised as sociable, really friendly. It's supposed to kind of take people from they can do a little bit of backpacking. Maybe they've started riding, they're getting into it, and then it's, this is their, maybe their first massive adventure. It's supposed to be advertised, I guess, a as not conventional cycling culture a little bit, but there are people there who are really, really good cyclists, so that skews com complicates it.

Veronica: Yeah,

Rhona: something had told you that in these type of groups, people do push themselves, and maybe it's a thing that you're not supposed to stop even if you're in trouble.

Veronica: Yeah. I, I, yes, I think there is, I mean, I didn't even, I, it's so hard to say. 'cause I think at that point I didn't even realise I was in trouble when I was so much, um, because I'd never been there.

Rhona: Yeah.

Veronica: Um, and also because I am so new to cycling, I didn't even know what con like conventional cycling etiquette or

Rhona: But you'd seen, they'll be in subliminal messages.

Veronica: I know

Rhona: You’ve been on Instagram?

Veronica: Yeah, exactly. Um, no, that's true. Yeah. And it, it was, it did feel like kind of counter counterculture. Um, but yeah, I think, uh, it's, I think it, there is, yeah. I wanted, yeah, it's a good question I'm gonna say it again, Rhona. It's a good question. So phrase, phrase the question back at me again.

Rhona: Yeah. So I'm just interested in what brought you to this point, you know, was there, was there. Imagery. Was there messages that you know you think you might have experienced that made you feel like you couldn't stop external things? Not internal. This is all the external things that you had seen about cycling or what it is to be an athlete or a sports person, or whatever you wanna call it.

Veronica: Yeah, I mean, I hadn't seen anyone stop, like everyone I'd seen had carried on, so, but I think the problem is you are like 60, 70 people spread out over tens of kilometres Yeah. At least spread over, you know, 40, 50 K. the amount of people that you're actually seeing at any one time apart from the night stops, is like 5, 6, 7 people at any time. So I, I didn't see any one stop. Um, I was kind of a noob. Um, the event, you know, they have a media van, but that van is not a support vans and it's a self-supported that is very much, um, outlined as a self-supported race or not race, uh, rally. So if you need something, you either have to have it yourself or find a way to sort it out. Um, the truth I found out is there is support there for you, but they just can't kind of say that they're gonna hold everyone's hands. it makes it a different kind of event.

Rhona: totally.

Veronica: So I think, yeah. Um. I think it would be totally different if I had just spoken to someone to be like, Hey, do people, you know, do people skip parts?

Rhona: to anybody? Was it, were you embarrassed?

Veronica: I mean everyone was struggling on that particular day and there was, um, yeah, people were like, there were, 'cause it is over a bigger distance and over such a big climb that there were large parts of the day where I was cycling alone. Um, and I was kind of like, well, I think at one point I was like. If I really remember now, I think there was a point near the top where I think I've realised maybe I was near being done.

And I said to myself, those last five trucks, I wish I got on and I didn't. The next one that if there is another one that comes, I might ask for another for help. And a truck never came. I missed you, missed your chance babes. It's uh, you made your bed, you gotta, uh, sleep in it. And I was like, well, my, my cards have been dealt. We're just gonna get to the top. Um, I think as we went further up the the hill, I did start asking strangers for water. So.

Rhona: Good. Yeah, I mean, just to be clear, there's no judgments here on how this played out. I really respect the decisions you made and I think that lesson we all are learning in life. So it's all got to be done a little bit, I think. And I actually, I think as well, given the head space you were in on that day and on that climb, had you got into a truck, I think maybe there’s a chance, depending on how much positive reaction you'd got from stopping, you might have regretted it. And not that you should have, just to be clear, either option was valid if it was the right thing for you, but I think because of the headspace you say you were in, in that moment, I think if you had then got to campsite and bumped into other people and they hadn't given you a really positive reaction for stopping, which I would hope they would, but I think there's a chance you could have gone, oh, like, oh, I wish I had.

Veronica: Yeah, no, I think you're right actually, because the time at which I decided to get the lift was from the top down, and that is, everyone says it was the best descent they've ever done in their lives, in the most beautiful setting, which I did get to see from the drive. And I don't regret getting that lift down because I was chuffed of, I was like, I made it to the top.

Rhona: You made your goal. So then this brings us to the internal part of this problem. So, uh, we'll go back all the way back to little Veronica, uh, and these, the influences that you, you know, you were talking about, you went skiing. You think some of that might have been because you want, your family wanted to show that you were a part of this culture and stuff like that.

Did that, did that have other impacts? Did you have to prove that in other ways,

Veronica: I can see where this is going right now.

Rhona: we can turn the corner, we don't have to go down this road.

Veronica: No, I, no, I just jumped ahead in my head and I was like, oh, we're gonna psychoanalyze why Veronica is the competitive person that she is.

Rhona: That’s what this podcast is?

Veronica: no, it is, uh, I, I see the, I see the trajectory now. I was like, oh, I, I, I understand the, the task. yeah, I think definitely, um, growing up like a second generation immigrant, there was like a lot of family pressure, not necessarily to live certain paths. I didn't have family that wanted me to go down a specific career path. I wasn't forced into, you know, you, you hear stories of people being like, okay, you could be a doctor or a lawyer, which is it gonna be? but there was kind of, you know, like even when we didn't necessarily have much money, we still had a nice car because we wanted to make sure that we weren't seen to, to not have money. so I think some element of being seen to be successful, whatever it was, and I was, you know, encouraged to do whatever it was that I want, which I enjoyed, which is great.

Although ended up, I ended up pursuing things I didn't enjoy just to be successful. Um, so that planned out well, but uh, we came back from that. Um, but I think yeah, that definitely impacted, uh, a lot of. sort of psychology growing up was to make sure if I was gonna do something, I was gonna do it

I was gonna do something, you know, I was gonna do it well. So

Rhona: I honestly think that there's a lot of, uh, nature to that. Not just nurture, you know, sorry parent. Don't worry you didn't do all of all of this.

Veronica: See you later.

Rhona: Um, but yeah. But it, but, and so some of this is just inbuilt, but I think somewhat the environment that we have grown up and that doesn't just have to be at home.

Um, you know, what kind of school did you go to?

Veronica: Uh, I went to a selective state school, so I had to like, uh. Not like I had to. Yeah. I had to prove myself to get in.

Rhona: So I guess there, there's gonna be a bit of an atmosphere of, you know, you have to do your best and all the rest of it.

Veronica: Yeah. Definitely. And like my family are all musicians and I wanted to pursue creative things at school, but they were like, you are smart. Don't waste your time doing that stuff. Um, whereas if I wasn't the smart book smart, I mean, like getting good grades, they might have been like, okay, you can also pursue the arts.

But I think because I get good grades, they were like, you better do something academic.

Rhona: Yeah, there's something very interesting in that isn't there?

Veronica: Yeah.

Rhona: That you have to, if you have a talent for something, you have to use it.

Veronica: Yes.

Rhona: I think that, oh, I mean, there's so many bits that that stems from, there's, you know, like societally. I think really, it's a very capitalist thing because, you know, we don't want, we don't need, you know, musicians who are not earning lots of money, who barely, you know, we need, you know, the big bucks earners.

So if you're smart, do it for society. Pay your taxes, it'll all be good.

Veronica: A hundred percent. Yeah. And I think it took me, you know, way after I left uni to that those things weren't making me happy and I had a rain check and figured out what did,

Rhona: Yeah. I think that also ends up coming into, uh, our, all of our outdoor pursuits and stuff. So if you are doing sport or exercise or any outdoor recreation as not non-professionally, why does it matter that you use your talents? Right? Why can't you just do the activity that's most fun?

Doesn't make sense to me that, but yet there is a push there too.

Or do the thing that you're, you're good at. I had another guest said that they don't really enjoy doing activities if they're not good at them.

Veronica: I've had a lot of people in life say that.

Rhona: yeah. And I was just like, wow. Isn't that so interesting? I don't, I don't think that that's a human thing. I don't think kids are like that.

Veronica: yeah, yeah,

Rhona: that's why they get good at really skills.

And you see these kids on balance bikes just falling over a hundred times over. They get back up and they're just having the best time. But adults would fall over once and go, well, I guess I'll try something else.

Veronica: yeah. Yeah. There's been like that new sort of minor trend within the Instagram creative world where people are like, Hey, you know, you don't have to be good at your hobby to enjoy it. Which is an interesting question when you ask yourself, okay, what is the thing that you would still do if you were bad at it?

Or you, or you didn't tell anyone about it?

Rhona: Well, I can tell you mine is climbing. I'm a terrible climber. I go every week. Am I making progress? No. Do I make bail on the last move almost every time. Yes.

Veronica: Nice. Yeah,

Rhona: But you know, I'm there and I'm having fun.

Veronica: yeah. Well, that's like my own relationship to climbing has dramatically changed in the last two years since I've stopped pursuing it to just be a, like a level at it. Um, and the now I'm just doing it to, for the enjoyment and surprise, surprise. I am sometimes climbing better than ever.

So, um

Rhona: And you see that actually even amongst professional athletes, to be honest. 'cause most professional athletes did originally enjoy the sport that they're doing.

Veronica: They did

Rhona: Um, once upon a time. Yeah. But then sometimes they burn out, they lose that. And then this rest concept, I think applies across the board to everybody because sometimes if you're, if you are doing your pursuit, your hobbies to such a high level, you lose the fun in it.

And you need a rest day, you need to take a step back and just remember why the hell you're doing this. Because there's no need for it to become miserable.

Veronica: Yeah, definitely. Yeah why, bother doing it? Like it's not going to give you enjoyment.

Rhona: Yeah. But then it comes back to that, well, if you're, if you're like one of the best in the world, you really owe it to everybody to keep doing it, you know?

Veronica: It's not about you anymore.

Rhona: no, definitely not. Right.

Veronica: Mm.

Rhona: I think that happens in a lot of people's careers too, though. Yeah.

Veronica: Then it becomes this kid thing that also is like, adventure is it kind of is a selfish thing as well though. Like, I don't know, where's the good in? Like, I'm going to, you know, focus on myself and

Rhona: oh, I don't agree with that at all. I think that you look after yourself first, you'll be so much better for the world, right? I can't take on people's problems all day, every day. If I go to work feeling drained and rubbish, I just burn out and I'll quit.

Veronica: yeah.

Rhona: then the NHS loses another doctor. Well, that was a stupid idea, wasn't it?

Veronica: Yeah

Rhona: I think that you, that they, it doesn't have looking after yourself. Putting a bit of, plus also, if we wanna really get down to like, uh, boring things like tax money and stuff, then looking after yourself physically also benefits everybody in the country because the NHS doesn't have to pay for us in the future.

And just to be clear, many, many health problems are not people's fault. I am not saying that, but there are some that we can impact. Um, but, and so there is that, that's not selfish at all.

Veronica: yeah. Okay. That's, yes, that is. but I mean, it's like taking care of yourself is, I think, different to, you know, being like, I'm gonna do a triathlon or ultra athlete.

Rhona: So what if you need that to what if that's the level you need to take care of yourself.

Veronica: I mean that, yes. I mean, I, I, I'm speaking as someone that likes to push myself, but sometimes I'm like, oh, why am I, you know, like. Spending so much time training for this thing, that is just like climbing this silly little rock face down in the river valley when I, I don't know, maybe I could be

Rhona: Yeah. Yeah, I get it. But also, I suppose, and, and I think there's often, because yeah, why are we wasting time not doing stuff of like that we could be doing more or more good for the world? I kind of agree, but I also think you have to make peace with it some more. You can't spend all of your time going out and helping people.

I suppose you have a more, you know, your dad experienced something that would put everything in perspective. You know, he left a genocide. So in a genocide, nobody's like, oh, I think I'm just gonna go bouldering. That sounds nice.

Veronica: yeah,

Rhona: That would be nice, wouldn't it?

Veronica: yeah.

Rhona: So, yeah, it's complicated, isn't it?

Rhona: we never do anything fun? Or should we, should we do a little bit? Are we selfish? If we do too much? I don't know.

Veronica: Yeah. It's funny though, 'cause my dad's like, oh, you can't do all these things. Like, he's always concerned about, about my safety and what I’m doing. And even when I moved to cities to be further away from him, and I'm like, dad, you like literally left your home country. I know it was like wartorn, but you haven't gone back and, uh, you know, maybe you have a bit of an adventurous spirit in yourself.

I know you liked a bit of skiing, so, uh, don't, don't tell me that. Uh, maybe the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Rhona: Yeah. That's so interesting, isn't it? Also though, I think you can do a lot of, oh, there's a lot of the world is suffering and the, a lot of the world is suffering, but a lot of people in horrible situations find amazing amounts of joy and I think we are in a really weird society and world. And so sometimes this is us finding, finding our joy.

Um, and it's, you can't compare two worlds to each other. It doesn't work.

Veronica: Have you seen the film resistance climbing?

Rhona: Maybe I'm very bad with film names. Tell me what happens.

Veronica: It's, um, it went round this sort of outdoor adventure film circuit and um, it's a film about an American outdoor writer who does a lot of writing for like all the big American outdoor magazines. Um, and he's got Palestinian Heritage, but he's not very connected to it. And he's a climber. He goes to Palestine, this is several years ago, to hang out with climbers in Palestine and it kind of. Isn't about the Israeli Palestinian relationship, but obviously that is the backdrop for it. but this American writer has a very cynical view on climbing. He's sort of fallen out of love with it, and he goes to see this between Palestinians and climbing, and it's so beautiful. And there's, I remember so vividly, there's this scene right at the end where like, what if I told you climbing doesn't mean anything? And you can just see these people's faces light up? And they're like, you don't climb if you think that. Um, and they just had so much spirit and joy and life because of the climbing. Um, and it was really, it's really beautiful to see.

Rhona: I have seen that film. It is amazing. And I think that's exactly kind of what I'm very badly trying to say.

Veronica: yeah.

Rhona: there is a lot. Yeah. I, I don't think you should, you should start making something that you do that brings you joy and makes you productive and makes you feel fulfilled. We already have enough things that we make ourselves feel bad about.

Don’t start feeling bad about this.

Veronica: For sure, and like I would rather spend my time in nature than figuring out how I can contribute to the capitalist machine turning as cogs.

Rhona: Exactly. Plus also, you are somebody who, when you're, when you're doing your projects and when you're out, you are trying to improve access for other people and you are interested in community. You don't just, you take people along with you. You don't just, you're not just going on your own and saying, oh, well, I'm not interested in improving it for anybody else.

Veronica: Well, good to hear. Sometimes it doesn't always feel like that.

Rhona: I know. Well, that's, yeah, we all, we, it's easy to, to not think that. Okay. I have some more specific questions for you. Um, you have done lots of work with, uh, elite athletes or, uh, athletes in general. Um. Does, has that warped your perception of what the outdoors is or what sport is?

Veronica: Um, I don't think so. I think I've been very lucky that the athletes I've worked with have all been extremely humble and people that really enjoy their sport. I actually did a shoot with, um, the mountain biker, Evie Richards, who is like a for lots of different an incredible athlete. You can probably fill in the blanks for what I'm about to say.

Rhona: Yeah.

Veronica: yeah, she's a pro cyclist badass. But I did a shoot with her before I kind of knew how big of a deal she was, um, which I think. don't think it necessarily would've changed much. And only in retrospect does do I realise that like, wow, she is such a humble person that just wants to spread joy about what she does. but no, I don't think it, I think it, if any of the changes it's made me think about sport is it's just like how amazing these ambassadors are bringing, you know, the, the love for their sport through particularly anyone who might not be the classic athlete that we have in mind. Particularly if they come from like non-white backgrounds, um, they are, you know, classic.

If you can't see it, you can't believe it. Um, so yeah, I think they, if anything it's had a positive impact to my relationship with sport.

Rhona: That was really good. You took, you said two things, one, I'm a big Evie Riches fan. Yeah. So if Evie ever ended up listening to this podcast, she wants to come on, you know, just hit me up. The second thing is, yeah, if you can't see it, you can't be it. That is, that's just behind everything that I do.

I love that saying. I think it says it all. That kind of brings me onto the thing is, if we only see elite athletes or people doing crazy stuff in the, in the outdoors, do we know that we can do anything else?

Veronica: Well,

Rhona: Okay. And then I'll make it a bit different the question. So, you know, obviously, so as a photographer you work with a brand and they want you to present an image of their brand, which most of the time is people doing stuff really, really well. But that is changing a little bit. I will give many, many brands credit for that.

But it is often a certain type of athlete, right? Or at least a certain type of person. They often look very athletic. They look like they should be doing that sport.

Veronica: yeah.

Rhona: and they're normally doing it pretty well. Do you, have you had any opportunities to represent a different side of the outdoors?

Veronica: Yeah. Well, I think the, I think how, where we see that representation kind of impacts the types of people we see. So sport, those people are going to look like elite athletes of the nature of the format of the event. But we also, you know, where we see people doing sport is also in advertising as you've mentioned. We are beginning to see some of those that are used. You know, initially it was like, okay, are they just not gonna be a sea of white faces? Now we're kind of in the outdoor industry pretty good at making sure that's the case. Do they look like they have a variety of do body types, do they have different skill levels?

Do they have different, um, body abilities or are they, you know, are they intersection the queer society or, um, different ways people present themselves. I think that side of things we are still much slower at doing. It also comes with this intrinsic issues. I think there was a campaign that a brand, a shoe brand per out with using an athlete who only, um, who was an amputee and had a partially missing foot. Um, and, uh, the, there was the community from the disabled community asked, oh, wow, is does that mean we can now buy that shoe a single shoe?

Rhona: I remember this. Yeah.

Veronica: But you couldn't. So they used the representation. Great. Amazing. But could they follow that up? No, they couldn't.

Rhona: Took full advantage of it, but then yeah.

Veronica: Exactly. So there is that like. intention, but not being able to follow through with the meaning

Rhona: Yeah, definitely that still exists in, uh, different body shapes and sizes for sure as well.

Veronica: yeah,

Rhona: because you know, sometimes you'll see a brand feature people of different size and shapes, but you the, if they do do a good enough variety of sizes. They're probably, they probably the one, you know, the, maybe the extreme ends sell out so quickly because they're still not putting much effort into those ends, right?

Veronica: yeah, exactly. Um, yeah, so it's like the representation is a, is a small part of that process, but it's

Rhona: Mm-hmm.

Veronica: the meaning behind it. I think the other way that we consume forms of media in the outdoor industry is through, kind of just the narrative. Films that get made through the adventure film circuit.

And this year I'm really lucky to be on the, Kendall Mountain Festival jury.

Rhona: Oh, you, that's fun.

Veronica: yes, it is very exciting. I get to watch all of the amazing films and to help decide which ones get to be prize winners. Having worked at Kendall in the past few years and been involved in other circuits, uh, there definitely is more of a spread of different types of people that experience the outdoors and being represented in that media.

And that's pretty cool because they, there really is like an authorship there of the people are in those stories also telling the stories. It's not like a brand uses person from this background to sell their stuff.

Rhona: Yeah. I think I'm definitely still seeing that sometimes. Obviously, you know, it's gonna take a while for that to change, but it, yeah, it seems from the outside, like there's improvements, so I'm glad that you feel like on the inside there's,

Veronica: Yeah. I think the brand commercial work still is like terrible for the people making it who and what that looks like. Um, but they are trying at least trying to do the right thing. But I think at the moment it's still a bit superficial in terms of their just trying to make it look good so they can sell to those communities, um, rather than like offering them the support.

Rhona: Yes. Yeah. I think that even still exists for women really, because, you know, there's a, like, now I'd say the representation, you know, there's mostly women involved in, in most advertising for outdoors things, but I still don't feel like the, equipment, the clothing, everything that's available to us is, is fully up to the same level.

Veronica: Yeah. I mean, Rhona, do you know when I will be able to find a sports bra that fits me well?

Rhona: That's a never, that is, isn't that just a never ending problem?

Veronica: I'm waiting.

Rhona: Yeah, exactly. I know, I think that one's, uh, yeah, it's gonna, there is a specific size of chest that if you have it, there are sports brass out there that fit. And if you are not that, just give up.

Rhona: I appreciate that insight.

I think that you, you've given and, uh, yeah. Do you think, um, the outdoors is like a, a cure for your need to push yourself or like a solution? Is it, is it, and, and if you don't have that, what happens to you?

Veronica: I do not think it is a cure, but I don't know if that's like a, a personal me thing, although my, me and my partner are experiencing the same, same, asking ourselves the same questions. I think there is partly, it feels like partly the outdoors is like a bandaid solution, like a treatment, it's a great treatment that I think is wonderful and it's. Works really well as a healthy coping coping mechanism. There could be far more, there could be far worse coping mechanisms that I could choose to,

Rhona: Hundred percent.

Veronica: to use. Um, but I think there is like some personal intrinsic, like work that I need to do on like fulfilment and finding, um, projects that feel really me meaningful and important to me, um, that I am like working out long term, um, to help ease the internal despair that visits me.

Rhona: I actually really love that answer. I think that that is very, it's very honest. Thank you. And um, I think that a lot of people will resonate with that. Um, I say that really often that I think it can be a bandaid for this kinda inner restlessness. I don't know where that comes from. Everybody has a different answer I suppose.

And I think that there is now a really a for, there's forming a very beautiful community and hopefully rest days will be a part of that, of people that are saying you don't need. To keep pushing. You don't need to be anything more than you. We can all exist and enjoy outdoor activities without them being taken to the extreme and there being anything unhealthy about it.

But you still have to grapple with it yourself. It ca

Veronica: Yes.

Rhona: doesn't just say to you, you are enough, and then you go, oh, well then I'll just leave it there and I'll just now enjoy a walk every Sunday and not ever push it, take anything too far.

Veronica: oh, I would sign up for that pill.

Rhona: I know, right? But then it does, there's arguments back and forwards because it allow, when you are, when you feel like that you do achieve things and you get to do experiences that you wouldn't if you didn't push yourself. So, you know, there's lots in life to experience and this is one of those things.

Veronica: Yeah, exactly. And when I think about one, you know, all the wonderful experiences that I get in terms of people I meet and places I get to go, like at its base, you know, I want my body to function for me for a really long time, and it's gonna do that if I treat it well. I think, whatever other things that I have going on, I think it's, our body is kind of like our instrument in a way.

Rhona: I love that. And I think there we have a really big disconnect with our bodies, um, which allows us to be really mean to them. And it also sometimes allows us to neglect them and forget that this is the only body you get. This is the one, the single one that you have for this whole life. You know, use it as a tool.

Don't be mean to it.

Veronica: Yeah. Keep it

Rhona: Yeah, I think it's really interesting. I'm not sure I have a bit of a theory that to fully, uh, kind of become totally mindful, not need, not need to be pushing, not need to settle that inner a restlessness. You have to take everything away. Maybe you have to lose it all, or you have to purposely step away fully and, you know, find enjoyment in all those tiny little things.

Veronica: Wait, you need to strip that away or you don't?

Rhona: I think you do, maybe.

Veronica: but to like a, to a monk-like state are we talking?

Rhona: I dunno, I'm not saying, I don't know, sometimes I mean, I've never been on a 10 day meditation where you don't talk to people, but some people say that's the level, you know, but. Um, I do know that in times where I took things too far and messed myself up, it was really horrible and it felt like things were ripped away.

But then when I came back super slowly and just found joy in all the small things, it was, it was really nice and that's how I find a happier balance.

Veronica: Yeah, I a hundred percent agree and I feel like I'm in a space of stripping stuff away in my own life, but it, it can be like scary and, uh, overwhelming and kind of lonely as well when you start taking away all these things that you held onto, um, previously. so maybe this conversation is having, coming at the perfect time for me.

Rhona: It seems like it is actually. I didn't know we were gonna be at such a good timing. Um, it's really, it's really interesting actually. Um, but, you know, I think it's complicated because a lot of that is tied in with your identity. A lot of who you are in an outdoorsy world is, I'm a climber, I'm a cyclist.

Um, so, but you are that, that's not actually who you are. You are a, you are a charismatic, like really bubbly extrovert who gets loads from people and gives loads to people. You're creative. All of those things have nothing to do with specific identities. They can be mixed into anything.

Veronica: That's so funny. People love to like latch on to. That category, like, so I've stopped posting about climbing recently because it's just a thing that's part of my life. I have been posting on Instagram more about cycling and people are literally asking me if I no longer climb and if I am now a cyclist, they're like, so you're a cyclist now?

I still like train for climbing three days, three times a week. I still take it pretty seriously. I'm just not about it because it's now just a thing that's for me.

Rhona: Yeah, it's just a thing you do.

Veronica: yeah, but people get confused by that and they're like, so, which is it climbing or cycling? And I'm like, actually I'm doing, you know, I'm learning piano, so

Rhona: We like to put people in boxes. It makes everything easy for us. We know where they stand,

Veronica: yeah,

Rhona: why, where all these big stereotypes come from and where cultures within a sport come from, just makes everything easier for everybody.

Veronica: I wanna deconstruct the box.

Rhona: Yeah, I agree. We don't need those boxes. Yes. Yeah, exactly. But speaking of social media, have you felt pressure from that then? Have you felt like you originally did? Do you think that you were specifically trying to fit the mold because that's what the algorithm wants?

Veronica: When you say originally, when, when are we talking?

Rhona: Well, I mean, you're saying now that you're trying to break down the walls of the box, right. So

Veronica: yes. now, before this moment. yeah, a hundred percent. I think when I was starting out as a photographer, um, I started out as a climbing photographer and now I kind of do more various bits and I, you know, do a lot of freelance writing and presenting. So it's not all just photography. I, but at the time I was like, I'm going to market myself as a climbing photographer because that way people will understand what I want to do and will approach me that sort of work.

And it worked and it worked really well. And the, I hate the amount of work that I got simply through Instagram. Um, so it's like a real double-edged sword. I feel very confused sometimes about not being a very simple, marketable thing where people easily understand what it is you are about.

Um, especially if there is like a transactional business element to it. 

Rhona: That's super interesting because it's so much more complicated for you when your work is intertwined with it all.

Veronica: Yeah, it is. And like. Even when I started climbing photography, I was like, is this, and you have to build your portfolio before you start getting paid work and you're like, is this a climbing day for me or is this a photography day for me photographing someone else? I had to really, I had to start making the distinction 'cause um, you can't do both well.

Rhona: No, that makes total sense. It's very interesting, isn't it? I think also it's very freeing not to be tied with your actual income to work that you're passionate about or anything like that. 

Veronica: Yeah. Yeah. Although I think there's something really special about if you can carve a pathway, you can do both.

Rhona: There aren't many people who manage that though.

Veronica: no, but the people that I look up to in the industry, they, you know, they have so many strings to their bow you know, I'm like, how do you manage to link all of them? And they are outspoken and they are respected and they are pa paid well for what they do. 

Rhona: Have you got any shout outs? People we can aspire to be like,

Veronica: yes, I was actually specifically thinking of,  Phil Young, who's one of the founders of, have you heard of the out Outo Project? 

Rhona: No.

Veronica: Oh my

Rhona: Tell me about it.

Veronica: OUTO. they're an organisation called Opening Up the Outdoors and they partner with loads of big brands and um, help mentor sort of leaders in the outdoor industry who were trying to open up the outdoors.

But Phil came from, like, Phil's like creative agency world, uh, has done stuff in like ski presenting and has done everything you've ever heard of. And Phil is just, if I could be like anyone, I want to be like Phil when I grow up. He's formidable

Rhona: Amazing. I love that. I mean, I don't know who they are, but I will now be checking them out because this is so, they sound fantastic and very much somebody to aspire to be in the outdoor world.

Veronica: Yeah. Um, so I think there is hope for us yet to be outspoken, opinionated, and very well paid, because not be mutually exclusive.

Rhona: Well, Veronica, that turned out to give even more than I hoped it would give.

Veronica: Oh, really? I had no idea what you're hoping for.

Rhona: But I hope that you didn't feel attacked.

Veronica: No, no, no. Not at all. You are the gentlest attacker I've ever had.

Rhona: Oh, good. I'll take, I'll put that on my, uh, Instagram bio. I think that's a pretty good, summary of who I am, maybe.

Veronica: Honey bear.

Rhona: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, yeah, thank you so much for your time. Uh, I think that a lot of people are gonna be really interested in what you had to say, and honestly, I feel like we could keep talking forever, 

Veronica: Thank you so much for having me. It is been lovely having a chat, um, letting me ramble on about all sorts of nonsense. But yeah, it's, uh, it was lovely. Very tricky questions. Very good ones like them. I'll be thinking about them all day.